brianr2
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My main instrument is: Brook Lyn guitar
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Post by brianr2 on May 22, 2013 14:35:00 GMT
From today's Telegraph:
[b]Why practice won’t make you perfect[/b] Practice may not make perfect, according to research. Copious repeated exercises are not enough to explain why people differ in skill in activities such as chess and music. In the first study of its kind, scientists found that practice accounted for only about a third of the differences in skill. Zach Hambrick, an American psychologist who wrote the study, said the other two-thirds were explained by intelligence or innate ability, and the age at which people started the particular activity. Many experts argue that thousands of hours of focused, deliberate practice can result in achieving elite status. But writing in the science journal Intelligence, after analysing studies of chess players and musicians, Prof Hambrick said: “Practice is indeed important to reach an elite level of performance, but this paper makes an overwhelming case that it isn’t enough. “The evidence is clear that some people do reach an elite level of performance without copious practice, while others fail to do so despite copious practice.”[/i]
So, as an Old Git without talent, I appear to be somewhat stuffed!
On the other hand, since I am not aiming for an "elite level of performance", and believe that even I might be bit better with practice than without, I think I shall keep on plucking. I am happy to settle for "practice makes better", if not actually "perfect".
Brian
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on May 22, 2013 14:39:31 GMT
Brian, There's no such thing as "perfection" otherwise you wouldn't continue to play a piece after you'd played it "perfectly". What would be the point.
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brianr2
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Post by brianr2 on May 22, 2013 15:05:52 GMT
An interesting point Dave. "Perfection" implies singularity, yet it is often variation that gives the greatest pleasure.
A long time ago, I used to thrash a little white ball around the countryside with the artifical objective of moving it several hundred yards into a small hole. For me, the occasional good shot and playing the course was much more satisfying than competing against others. I see music similarly: the pursuit of improvement and personal satisfaction is what matters, not some illusory quest for supremacy.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on May 22, 2013 15:20:45 GMT
"Practice makes perfect" is obviously a gross oversimplification. I much prefer the following paraphrase, which, though not as succinct, is nearer the truth -
Prior preparation possibly prevents piss poor performance.
Keith
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on May 22, 2013 16:16:42 GMT
I prefer the 'Law of diminishing returns': You can practice something until it is 'good' Practicing for twice as long won't make it twice as good... As far as I am concerned (and this relates only to me) 'good' is good enough ... although I set myself low standards and consistently fail to achieve them
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brianr2
C.O.G.
Posts: 3,041
My main instrument is: Brook Lyn guitar
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Post by brianr2 on May 22, 2013 16:58:25 GMT
"Practice makes perfect" is obviously a gross oversimplification. I much prefer the following paraphrase, which, though not as succinct, is nearer the truth - Prior preparation possibly prevents piss poor performance.Now all you need to do is mind your Qs...
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Post by marcus on May 24, 2013 19:18:13 GMT
Thanks for posting about this important research... thankfully I've just found another rationale for my aversion to practising and will rest easy in the knowledge that I both lack intelligence and ability and am in fact over the hill.
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on May 24, 2013 19:44:02 GMT
I will rest easy in the knowledge that I both lack intelligence and ability and am in fact over the hill. Fear not, Marcus ... I can't even get UP the soddin' hill!
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brianr2
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Posts: 3,041
My main instrument is: Brook Lyn guitar
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Post by brianr2 on May 24, 2013 22:15:30 GMT
I will rest easy in the knowledge that I both lack intelligence and ability and am in fact over the hill. Fear not, Marcus ... I can't even get UP the soddin' hill! Such a joy to be accompanied by so many grumpy old men, like myself. Though I have to say that I find the TV series of the same name more a factual record of true life than a comedy.... Brian
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Post by scripsit on May 25, 2013 0:56:51 GMT
I call BS on this study, without reading it. (Always the safest way of criticising someone else's paper.)
Chess and music as similar activities upon which to draw conclusions about mastery? You can draw long bows about creativity and the like, but chess (like Brian's quest for better golf) has the capacity for distinct and finite measures. That is, how often do you win and who can you beat (and what is your best score etc)? In fact, I believe this sort of measure is exactly how elite chess players are ranked.
What is the correlation here with music? Classical musicians of a certain age enter prestigious competitions, and the US in particular is fond of things like competitive finger-picking festivals, but are these really measures of how good musicians are, or, more to the point, whether good music is being made?
Likewise, just getting through a piece without mistakes doesn't make what happens 'music', at least to my ears. There are intangibles at all levels of performance which make it impossible to classify when the process swaps from playing an instrument to creating some music.
The easiest proofs of this in guitar terms are people who most of us would consider 'elite' musicians who nevertheless have very limited or even crap technique in objective, guitar teacher terms: think John Lee Hooker, Bukka White, John Fahey... BB King, in the video of him playing with U2, announces with some panic that he can't play chords, and has to be reassured that he can just single string it. Have you ever tracked how often Eric Clapton avoids using his left hand little finger when soloing? And, closer to home, one of the reasons some of Bert Jansch's pieces are so hard to play is that there are bizarre little timing variations from bar to bar, which he covers effortlessly.
So, when it comes down to we lesser mortals, I think practice makes sense, for all sorts of muscle memory reasons (and yes, as an old fart, this is less secure that it was when I was twenty, although to balance this out, I've heard a lot of good music since then), but the main thing is attitude, not to the practising, but to what noises we are making. What are we trying to do with it?
Kym
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Post by marcus on May 25, 2013 9:09:30 GMT
scripsit, I LIKE the way you're thinking!!!
No one ever told me this was meant to be a comedy??? Another interesting fact I've learned from this thread.
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Post by jackorion on May 26, 2013 9:23:36 GMT
What is perfection anyway?
I think 'practice makes competent' is a better analogy - I think anything beyond competence is down to interpretation, inspiration and context - for example, a competent blues player could hold their own at a 'jam' but a 'elite' classical player may not. Who is the better player in the mind of the audience in that situation?
Look at someone like Seasick Steve - 'competent' out of the context of 'his' music might be stretching his abilities, but in the context of his performances and music he's beyond competent....
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Post by andyhowell on Jun 3, 2013 21:57:15 GMT
Feel, touch and spirit are more important than note accuracy - once you have found your own voice it is easier - and the practice and playing is fun!
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Post by scorpiodog on Jun 12, 2013 11:40:42 GMT
and the practice and playing is fun! What Andy said!
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Post by additop on Sept 17, 2013 19:59:01 GMT
Practice makes permanent not perfect!
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