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Post by jackorion on Jun 11, 2013 9:33:19 GMT
So, after a couple of years of not playing out, I've set myself the task of learning two quite tricky songs which I will then, with one of my own instrumentals added, take out to some open mics....
the two songs are canadee-I-o and little musgrave (the Martin Simpson version)... I don't do things by halves!
i can actually play the guitar parts for both songs fine and basically at the right speed, but I'm finding it hard to play and sing at the same time.
I've sung a lot in the past, but mainly with just strumming.
Am I best to slow right down again like I did when learning the guitar parts, or just struggle on through till it starts working?
any advice would be great...
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jun 11, 2013 10:58:12 GMT
Great songs!I would have thought it hard to slow down the vocal and retain much in the way of expression and decent phrasing, breathing etc though I may be wrong - maybe it's almost working for you like that?
Anyway, why not record the guitar parts at your intended performance speed and sing along to your recordings to get accustomed to how the words sit with the guitar bits? You could then concentrate solely on getting good flow,feel, phrasing and expression into the words. When you're happy with that, go back to guitar+voice at proper speed. Might just work.....
Keith
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Jun 11, 2013 11:26:50 GMT
I think you've identified the root of the problem when you say that you can play the "guitar parts". Personally I think that for songs the guitar part should be in support of and built around the vocal and not the other way round. You've chosen two songs by performers that have their own idiomatic styles of song delivery and accompaniment - Nic Jones and Martin Simpson - and I think it's very hard to replicate and perform that on a note for note basis. I'd try singing the songs without guitar first until you are comfortable with your vocal style and delivery and then start to bring in the guitar accompaniment going with "the flow" of it rather than a solo fingerstyle note for note performance and if necessary simplify the accompaniment. In performance your main concentration should be in the vocal delivery and emotional flavours - which is what the audience will be focusing on - and if you are having to think hard of the accompaniment that are almost solo fingerstyle guitar pieces in their own right that could suffer.
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Post by peterh on Jun 11, 2013 11:31:51 GMT
Hello Jack,
Some one gave me some help a few years ago, he was a drummer, who's name I can't remember - sorry- but it was at the Tilsone Music Club, in Cheshire. He could obviously hear/ feel when the songs were off and /or bars for example were being extended or shortened .
The idea is to play the guitar part and at the same time sing or recite a times table. This helps to diassociate the words of the song from the music.
Like everything it might seems difficult at 1st, but it could well help in the long run.
Kind regards,
Peter
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Post by peterh on Jun 11, 2013 11:36:33 GMT
Just to add I also agree with Martin, as you do really need to be able to sing the song freely too...
peter
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Post by jackorion on Jun 11, 2013 17:00:45 GMT
I think you've identified the root of the problem when you say that you can play the "guitar parts". Personally I think that for songs the guitar part should be in support of and built around the vocal and not the other way round. You've chosen two songs by performers that have their own idiomatic styles of song delivery and accompaniment - Nic Jones and Martin Simpson - and I think it's very hard to replicate and perform that on a note for note basis. I'd try singing the songs without guitar first until you are comfortable with your vocal style and delivery and then start to bring in the guitar accompaniment going with "the flow" of it rather than a solo fingerstyle note for note performance and if necessary simplify the accompaniment. In performance your main concentration should be in the vocal delivery and emotional flavours - which is what the audience will be focusing on - and if you are having to think hard of the accompaniment that are almost solo fingerstyle guitar pieces in their own right that could suffer. I think you have a point here - I started learning these pieces as I loved the songs but mainly the guitar parts. i can play them 'instrumentally' perfect, but when I start singing I find myself concentrating on one part and messing up the other. I am getting better - I've managed canadee io all the way through quite a few times without major disasters! i sing the songs along to the originals in my car on the way to work so I'm getting familiar with the phrasing etc. i think the key is to just keep at it and adapt the rigid arrangements I've learntbasinfind my way of performing the ones - I'm not looking or 100% replicas!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 0:03:13 GMT
I think you've identified the root of the problem when you say that you can play the "guitar parts". Personally I think that for songs the guitar part should be in support of and built around the vocal and not the other way round. You've chosen two songs by performers that have their own idiomatic styles of song delivery and accompaniment - Nic Jones and Martin Simpson - and I think it's very hard to replicate and perform that on a note for note basis. I'd try singing the songs without guitar first until you are comfortable with your vocal style and delivery and then start to bring in the guitar accompaniment going with "the flow" of it rather than a solo fingerstyle note for note performance and if necessary simplify the accompaniment. In performance your main concentration should be in the vocal delivery and emotional flavours - which is what the audience will be focusing on - and if you are having to think hard of the accompaniment that are almost solo fingerstyle guitar pieces in their own right that could suffer. That sums it up to a nicety. Waylon Jennings, a sideman before ever he went solo, once said that the trick to learn for both playing in a band and self-accompaniment was that the backing musician serves the singer and the singer serves the song. A corollary of this is that once you get away from the idea that rhythm, tone and flow must be reproduced exactly as Musician X rendered it you begin to develop your own style.
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Post by jackorion on Jun 12, 2013 6:25:14 GMT
Some good advice here chaps!
One thing I'll point out is that I'm not in a massive hurry to achieve this - I don't have a deadline set - so, if I am capable of playing the original arrangements (which I love) and singing together I don't mind if it takes me six months to do so - I'm learning other pieces and songs as I go anyway.
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Akquarius
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Post by Akquarius on Jun 13, 2013 19:46:07 GMT
I'm with what Dave said. When I do songs like Dust In The Wind or The Road the fingerstyle guitar part has to accompany my singing in order to get a full picture. When learning stuff like that I put voice first, guitar in combination or second . Sounds a bit weird, I hope it makes sense.
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Post by andyhowell on Jun 16, 2013 19:24:41 GMT
Practice, practice. Don't take the out live until you are confident you can play the will within yourself, if you get what I mean.
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