David Hutton
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My main instrument is: The Colin Symonds All English Guitar
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Post by David Hutton on Sept 23, 2019 12:03:41 GMT
To answer the original question, I would ask “Would you be happy/comfortable to play the song in front of a largely Caribbean based audience? “ If the answer is yes, then go ahead. If not, then don’t because there is obviously something that does not feel right about it. And of course the race of the audience should be irrelevant as to if it is right or not. Amit, it depresses me that you should be asked the Sitar question so regularly and it really must be very tiresome. I can only assume (or perhaps hope) that this type of question is dwarfed by the number of comments in relation to your musical talent and superb guitar playing!
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Post by dreadnought28 on Sept 23, 2019 12:30:36 GMT
I think that if you have to question 'is this racist?' then, on some level, it is. I also think that asking if you should be offended if a 'dark skinned chap from Asia' pretends to be a geordie you're missing the point - as far as I'm aware Geordies have never been denied housing or work, been classed as an inferior race, had their forebearers traded as property, been beaten up , had disgusting filthy names shouted at them in the street and all other kinds of terrible experiences simply because the colour of their skin is different to the 'dark skinned chap from Asia'. Nearly 60'000 US Soldiers died in the Vietnam war and anything up to 250'000 South Vietnamese soldiers died - that's 300'000 people who didn't do any growing up. 'Political Correctness gone mad' arguments puzzle me - are you saying that sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia etc etc shouldn't be regarded as unacceptable? There will always be people who are quick to take offence when, perhaps, offence is not intentionally meant, and there are always people who intentionally mean offence and will claim they don't. Even though it's an aggravating phrase 'Political Correctness' is not really about 'snowflakes' or being 'woke' or stopping people expressing themselves - it's about being aware that society has moved on from the days where white heterosexual men could do and say whatever the hell they liked to anyone else because they held all the social power. I'm not going to get involved in a debate on here as I don't think internet forums are the place for these discussions as it's easy to misinterpret words on a screen as more aggressive and pointed than when they're said face to face - I'm not a fan of censorship but I think the mods should keep a very close eye on this thread. I agree with Ben here, and I think the whole “political correctness gone mad”, “people need thicker skins” thing is a pretty lazy way of quashing debate (my opinion), or invalidating someone’s potentially very genuine offence. Going back to the original post, I personally don’t have very strong view one way or the other, other than, as you allude to, the lyrics make it particularly difficult to not sound as though you’re doing a caricature.. If it were me, I wouldn’t do it. My main thoughts from reading some of the wider posts on this thread are - unless you have yourself experienced ongoing prejudice, judgement, or opinions based on a protected characteristic which is being portrayed in song or a comedy routine or anything else, then you’re probably not the best placed person to deem it inoffensive. For me, context is everything. For example (and apologies to the OP for taking this slightly off topic, I’m just trying to make a wider point), if I, as a ‘dark skinned’ chap was to play a gig and someone from the audience came up to me afterwards and asked if I also played the sitar, you might think I was being a little touchy if I was overtly offended. But if it told you I get asked that question *at least* three times a night (sadly this is true, it can be much more), with it often being the first and only question someone asks, with no other comment on the songs I’ve just played, then you might understand my annoyance. Like I say, context is everything, and in the above example, I’d reserve the right to be offended. Again apologies for taking that off topic from the OP’s post. I agree with you Amit. It’s impossible to understand how it feels if it’s never happened to you.
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Post by PistolPete on Sept 23, 2019 13:23:58 GMT
If anyone was to approach me having watched me play guitar and ask if I also played the the sitar Amit I'd be hugely flattered...surely a much more technical instrument to play than the ubiquitous 6 string . Much better than being asked if I also played the banjo I fear you may have missed the point here - Amit & I have a passing acquaintance IRL and, were you to see him perform his set of fingerpicked blues, rags & old time Americana, "Do you play the banjo?" would not be a ridiculous question (in fact he does play the banjo, rather well as it happens). Nothing I've seen him perform live hints that he has any interest in Indian music & yet, because he has brown skin, people ask if he plays the sitar. Surely you can see that points at underlying prejudices, even if it's presumably well-intentioned?
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Post by Amit on Sept 23, 2019 13:30:58 GMT
To answer the original question, I would ask “Would you be happy/comfortable to play the song in front of a largely Caribbean based audience? “ If the answer is yes, then go ahead. If not, then don’t because there is obviously something that does not feel right about it. And of course the race of the audience should be irrelevant as to if it is right or not. Amit , it depresses me that you should be asked the Sitar question so regularly and it really must be very tiresome. I can only assume (or perhaps hope) that this type of question is dwarfed by the number of comments in relation to your musical talent and superb guitar playing! Cheers David, very much appreciated Yep the sitar thing, and similar comments do become pretty tiresome (would you believe it, I had my hair ruffled by an audience member last week because she was pleased she had correctly guessed I was of Indian heritage – again it was the only reason she came up to speak to me), but you’re totally right – these comments are far outweighed by people just being nice, saying nice things and often asking me about my guitars, which I’m always happy to talk about in great detail! Cheers again Amit
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Post by Amit on Sept 23, 2019 13:39:51 GMT
If anyone was to approach me having watched me play guitar and ask if I also played the the sitar Amit I'd be hugely flattered...surely a much more technical instrument to play than the ubiquitous 6 string . Much better than being asked if I also played the banjo I fear you may have missed the point here - Amit & I have a passing acquaintance IRL and, were you to see him perform his set of fingerpicked blues, rags & old time Americana, "Do you play the banjo?" would not be a ridiculous question (in fact he does play the banjo, rather well as it happens). Nothing I've seen him perform live hints that he has any interest in Indian music & yet, because he has brown skin, people ask if he plays the sitar. Surely you can see that points at underlying prejudices, even if it's presumably well-intentioned? Yep! Thanks Pete
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Post by bleatoid on Sept 23, 2019 15:39:09 GMT
I'm finding this thread more than a little disturbing. A song's origins have little to do with the context in which they are used, after all time and standards move on. Basically, I ask myself why do something that you sense might — and then discover — might offend people in this way? It might be worth reflecting on how such views can narrow horizons. A year ago I gave a spot to a guy who is a pretty good performer and songwriter. He played a set on a lovely Sunday afternoon when the audience was enjoying the sunshine and eating. This musician seemed to have had a few beers. He started making comments about his friend who was accompanying him. He kept referring to his mate as an 'Iti'. This was no doubt mentioned in jest but I had five complaints from the audience who found his comments offensive. In other circumstances I might have had a word with him about it but I'd been uncomfortable at comments I'd heard him make at another venue. We have simply never invited him back. What I find bemusing about this thread is that it started with a question as to whether the song should be sung. People gave their honest responses and somehow they were then accused of being politically correct. I'll be blunt. At best this would be in poor taste and at worst racist. Andy, you need to help me out here with some supporting rationale to your comments - - what is it, precisely, about the thread that you find disturbing? (personally I've found some of the points very enlightening and debate has to be better than silent assumed concensus?) - why, exactly, would performing the song be racist? I'm really struggling with the last point in particular - ie the original OP post question. We have a calypso folk song with origins in the carribean being sung by workers in a strong local vernacular. It can't be sung any other way. The song is not derogatory or offensive of itself, it is not "about" black people "by" white people and the lyrics are simple and inoffensive. It has no slavery connotations - these are paid workers. Why, exactly, is singing the song racially offensive? I respectfully suggest that an answer of "it has no merit so why not choose another song" is an irrelevant subjective distraction to the debate - it had merit to the original singers, it has perceived merit to the group considering performing it and they believe that their audience would enjoy it. I further suggest that the suggested guideline of "if there is any risk that something might offend, then don't perform it" - is really not very helpful - any folk song sung by someone not of the original people from whence it came could be considered dangerous - as a specific example, I'd suggest any Englishman might do well to avoid any celtic or gaelic folk songs. If the core issue here is that it is disrespectful or comedic in some way for a person from one culture to mimic the presentation of a song in its original culture, then the earlier discussion about the blues neeeds to be revisited. Presumably early artists such as Leadbelly et al are completely off the agenda with call and holler plantation based music - but where would you draw the line after that? We can certainly add in reggae and soul to the mix. It's easy to get self gratification by beating our breasts and offering generic statements of horror and revulsion at racism. My personal view is that the best way to defeat racism is by cross cultural understanding - putting stuff in a pandora's box marked "potentially offensive do not open" is building walls not breaking them down.
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Post by scorpiodog on Sept 23, 2019 15:44:27 GMT
I'm finding this thread more than a little disturbing. A song's origins have little to do with the context in which they are used, after all time and standards move on. Basically, I ask myself why do something that you sense might — and then discover — might offend people in this way? It might be worth reflecting on how such views can narrow horizons. A year ago I gave a spot to a guy who is a pretty good performer and songwriter. He played a set on a lovely Sunday afternoon when the audience was enjoying the sunshine and eating. This musician seemed to have had a few beers. He started making comments about his friend who was accompanying him. He kept referring to his mate as an 'Iti'. This was no doubt mentioned in jest but I had five complaints from the audience who found his comments offensive. In other circumstances I might have had a word with him about it but I'd been uncomfortable at comments I'd heard him make at another venue. We have simply never invited him back. What I find bemusing about this thread is that it started with a question as to whether the song should be sung. People gave their honest responses and somehow they were then accused of being politically correct.I'll be blunt. At best this would be in poor taste and at worst racist. I don't think we can be reading the same thread, Andy. I've just reread the whole thing, and I haven't seen this bit. There seem to be opinions here, and I haven't seen anybody trash anybody else's. I can see the strong opinions coming through, but I'm darned if I can see any accusations.
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andrewjw
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Post by andrewjw on Sept 23, 2019 18:16:52 GMT
Yep the sitar thing, and similar comments do become pretty tiresome (would you believe it, I had my hair ruffled by an audience member last week because she was pleased she had correctly guessed I was of Indian heritage – again it was the only reason she came up to speak to me), but you’re totally right – these comments are far outweighed by people just being nice, saying nice things and often asking me about my guitars, which I’m always happy to talk about in great detail! Cheers again Amit Scary! When I was a similar age to you and gigging regularly in Scotland occasionally ladies used to buy me drinks , pass me their phone numbers and whisper blush inducing suggestions in my ear... Never experienced any hair ruffling though.. Sorry to go wildly OT FFJ but just trying to lighten the atmosphere on this thread [ as I thought I was doing on an an earlier post]...
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Sept 23, 2019 21:18:50 GMT
would you believe it, I had my hair ruffled by an audience member last week because she was pleased she had correctly guessed I was of Indian heritage Oh to have hair to be ruffled... I'd consider myself lucky if I get a quick polish.
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Post by Matt Milton on Sept 23, 2019 21:57:02 GMT
My tuppenceworth: don't do it. Or do it but fastidiously not in a Caribbean accent. It's not only a question of causing offence, it's just naff (though it is also a question of causing offence).
White guys singing a song with quasi-patois lyrics ('me wan' etc) with references to bananas. It ticks way too many bad boxes.
It's different to singing a blues or soul song with an American accent. Essentially a white british singer singing blues in an american accent is not that different from a white american singer singing blues in their own american accent. It might work, it might not, but it doesn't have the same cringe-factor somehow.
Off the top of my head I can't actually think of any white blues singers who deliberately mimic rural African American cadences in singing (i.e. rather than just singing in a generic US accent): if I were to hear a white guy covering Robert Johnson in a way that 100% mimicked his delivery I'd find that pretty wrong. Maybe there are guys like that out there; if so I have successfully managed to avoid hearing them!
I suppose Mick Jagger springs to mind as one big glaring exception, but I suppose he got/gets away with it because the Stones became mega huge in a very different world; and perhaps because Jagger sang in a lot of different voices, most of them completely over the top (e.g. his English posh showman voice); and of course irrespective of what he was trying to do he never actually sounded remotely like an African American bluesman - an element of ridiculousness probably helped enormously. (And I say all of that as a big Stones fan!)
Also, those hypothetical arguments in the other direction ("is an African American not allowed to sing Yorkshire industrial work songs in a Yorkshire accent?" etc) aren't very convincing to me, because: 1. It never happens!; 2. there's no history of Yorkshiremen being systemically racially abused by black people.
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Post by Mike Floorstand on Sept 25, 2019 11:24:50 GMT
I think that if you have to question 'is this racist?' then, on some level, it is. I also think that asking if you should be offended if a 'dark skinned chap from Asia' pretends to be a geordie you're missing the point - as far as I'm aware Geordies have never been denied housing or work, been classed as an inferior race, had their forebearers traded as property, been beaten up , had disgusting filthy names shouted at them in the street and all other kinds of terrible experiences simply because the colour of their skin is different to the 'dark skinned chap from Asia'. Just to add that the phrase "dark-skinned chap" is itself offensive. I don't hear the word "chap" itself very often - no doubt it's more common in some UK regions, or among older generations. If I did hear it today it might be on the context of someone putting on a posh voice and jokingly highlighting British/Englishness in some way. I'd typically associate it with 1930s public-school-educated Englishmen to refer affectionately to their equals, and condescendingly to refer to those who are not their equals. Apparently the word derives from "chapman" meaning trader or customer, so no doubt the English upper classes found it amusing to adopt the word to refer to themselves. So "dark-skinned chap" could be either an attempt at irony (highlighting the non-Britishness of the person), or condescending, or both. It could be intentionally derogatory, or simply reveal subconscious prejudice, but either way it is racist.
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Post by scorpiodog on Sept 25, 2019 11:54:57 GMT
I use the word "chap" from time to time. I think adding "dark skinned" is suspect too, but there's nothing wrong with the word itself, is there, Chaps?
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Sept 25, 2019 13:31:11 GMT
I'm a frequent user of the word "chap/chaps", though not in a posh way I don't think. I'm not convinced that any word in itself always carries offence - context, intent, tone of voice and the hearer(s) make a huge difference. Keith
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Sept 25, 2019 17:16:41 GMT
My god, what a thread. Does anybody actually mention a guitar anywhere......
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Sept 25, 2019 17:18:56 GMT
My god, what a thread. Does anybody actually mention a guitar anywhere...... FFJ does... in post 1. But that’s all until we get to Amit”s contribution
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