missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Dec 5, 2013 21:49:17 GMT
If you're learning, I suppose you need to stretch yourself by trying to play stuff that's beyond your ability, but the continual experience of failure and bad playing can be discouraging. On the other hand, sticking to easier pieces can get a bit boring.
I've just spent about four months working on 'Couperin's' Mysterious Barricades (though by the time I've finished with it, I wonder how much of Couperin is left). I've used the simplest possible arrangement and simplified it even more, using the first position and open strings as much as possible. I've modified the chords at the end of each section differently, as a marker to help me remember where I'm up to. It's easy to go round in circles with this piece. About three times in the whole four months I've thought it sounded quite nice. The rest of the time, I'm getting to the point where I never want to hear it again. It was certainly a mistake to attempt such a long piece. Now I feel as though I've wasted all that effort.
I'd love to know how other people manage the level of difficulty so that they can make progress and still enjoy it without getting sickened off.
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scotch
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Post by scotch on Dec 5, 2013 22:45:56 GMT
Hello,
For me its the mind set really. I still find it surprising for some people to struggle with progress in there playing. For me I always think that if i want to i can play any guitar piece. No matter what. Few things i feel it just happens in time rather than progress for example, development of your ear.
I learned Drifting within a year of picking the guitar up. Just because i believed it wasn't difficult. I learn Jerry Reed Breakdown. That was a bugger memorising how it went but eventually i got there.
It's just if i want to learn a song for either its techniques, its cool looks, the sound etc I will learn it one way or another. Well without watching them play it on Youtube I'm snookered.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Dec 5, 2013 23:52:56 GMT
If you're learning, I suppose you need to stretch yourself by trying to play stuff that's beyond your ability, but the continual experience of failure and bad playing can be discouraging. On the other hand, sticking to easier pieces can get a bit boring. I'm sure you're right there - it is important to be stretched. Deliberately trying to learn something seemingly out of reach can be a good thing if you have the patience, perseverance and motivation to stick at it, even though it may take a very long time. I have some pieces that I've been working at, on and off, for years. One day I'll get there! As for "simple" pieces, they can still be beautiful music. Once the notes are correct, and in the right order there will always be things to work at to improve tone, dynamics, fluidity, timing and tempo. They can also form the basis for experimentation with changing the arrangement or trying out new techniques. I've just spent about four months working on 'Couperin's' Mysterious Barricades (though by the time I've finished with it, I wonder how much of Couperin is left). I've used the simplest possible arrangement and simplified it even more, using the first position and open strings as much as possible. I've modified the chords at the end of each section differently, as a marker to help me remember where I'm up to. It's easy to go round in circles with this piece. About three times in the whole four months I've thought it sounded quite nice. The rest of the time, I'm getting to the point where I never want to hear it again. It was certainly a mistake to attempt such a long piece. Now I feel as though I've wasted all that effort. Lovely piece! I'm sure your efforts haven't been wasted - you'll return to the piece at some stage, and probably find that you play it better than when you last left off. I'd love to know how other people manage the level of difficulty so that they can make progress and still enjoy it without getting sickened off. Mostly by trying not to think of whether a piece is simple or difficult, but whether or not the sound/feel etc of it appeals to me as a piece of music. If it does appeal, then that will provide the motivation not only to learn it, but to play it as well as I can, whether that takes a week or several years. I think I'm much more keen on playing stuff in such a way that it sounds good musically than I am on making "progress" in the technical difficulty sense. I get more pleasure trying to play simple music well, hopefully with sensitivity and integrity, than from playing complicated music in a stilted or mechanical fashion. Do you write your own pieces? It is a different sort of challenge, but a very rewarding one! You have only yourself to please, no-one knows what the piece is "supposed" to sound like, but if anyone else should enjoy the result, then that's a pleasant bonus. Excellent thread Alison - looking forward to more responses! Keith
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Post by scripsit on Dec 6, 2013 5:33:57 GMT
I think that it depends on whether the 'difficulty' is to do with tangible things like particular techniques (still can't do a 'celtic triplet' with three fingers, although I can sort of fake one using thumb and a single finger on the lower strings), horrendous left hand stretches (thank you, Pierre Bensusan), clean fast passages and so on, or the more intangible elements associated with 'sounding like' a particular player or genre.
If it's a tangible thing, I've found (so far at least) it's just a matter of working through the piece, or the difficult bit of it, over and over until you get it or become so sick of it that you put it away for a while. Like Keith, I've got some pieces I've been working on for years, that are regularly parked for a few weeks or months until I'm better equipped to deal with them. Sometimes, much to my horror, I actually have to practise some technique in isolation, not actually playing music at all. I just remind myself that it's better than doing the dishes or mowing the lawn.
The intangible stuff is a bit more difficult, and very frustrating if you have admiration for people who are really good at what they do. In my electric guitar days I could never do a John Lee Hooker imitation, even though there's nothing much of technical difficulty going on in most of his songs. Now I'd rate players like Bert Jansch as very hard to 'get', because their playing has so much personal eccentricity, things like timing and phrasing and such that don't follow very clear rules. Having said that, trying to incorporate some of the feel of players you admire seems to have a positive effect on your own playing, but it does take a lot of time.
I've found it much easier to cope with the whole 'difficult' notion since I've had access to lots of pieces that I enjoy playing and can, on a good day, play reasonably well: after half an hour of soul destroying mountain climbing you get the reward of some time playing real music.
Kym
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Post by sigmadel on Dec 6, 2013 7:26:54 GMT
I do it by (and this is also my downfall) making up my own tunes and trying to write lyrics to suit . Sometimes the lyric comes first and that's more challenging the downfall of that is I know very little actual songs so at parties when folk say give us a tune I'm lost apart from wild thing . This is now what I'm working on as much , trying to learn covers to broaden my repertoire . I get frustrated sometimes trying to learn my favourite Martyn Joseph songs and have to content myself with the easier ones as his stuff isn't really available as tab and I've checked various sites ( chordie,ultimate guitar etc...)
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Dec 6, 2013 14:14:56 GMT
If it's more than three chords I don't even bother
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Dec 6, 2013 14:43:05 GMT
If it's more than three chords I don't even bother You lying toad! I'm certain I saw and heard you playing a V flat demented chord at HB4! Keith
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leoroberts
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My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
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Post by leoroberts on Dec 6, 2013 14:44:30 GMT
No, that was me trying to tune up...
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007
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Post by 007 on Dec 6, 2013 14:51:02 GMT
I'm in awe of anyone who can play more than three chords
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brianr2
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Post by brianr2 on Dec 6, 2013 15:10:44 GMT
If you're learning, I suppose you need to stretch yourself by trying to play stuff that's beyond your ability, but the continual experience of failure and bad playing can be discouraging. On the other hand, sticking to easier pieces can get a bit boring. I'm sure you're right there - it is important to be stretched. Deliberately trying to learn something seemingly out of reach can be a good thing if you have the patience, perseverance and motivation to stick at it, even though it may take a very long time. I have some pieces that I've been working at, on and off, for years. One day I'll get there! As for "simple" pieces, they can still be beautiful music. Once the notes are correct, and in the right order there will always be things to work at to improve tone, dynamics, fluidity, timing and tempo. They can also form the basis for experimentation with changing the arrangement or trying out new techniques. I've just spent about four months working on 'Couperin's' Mysterious Barricades (though by the time I've finished with it, I wonder how much of Couperin is left). I've used the simplest possible arrangement and simplified it even more, using the first position and open strings as much as possible. I've modified the chords at the end of each section differently, as a marker to help me remember where I'm up to. It's easy to go round in circles with this piece. About three times in the whole four months I've thought it sounded quite nice. The rest of the time, I'm getting to the point where I never want to hear it again. It was certainly a mistake to attempt such a long piece. Now I feel as though I've wasted all that effort. Lovely piece! I'm sure your efforts haven't been wasted - you'll return to the piece at some stage, and probably find that you play it better than when you last left off. I'd love to know how other people manage the level of difficulty so that they can make progress and still enjoy it without getting sickened off. Mostly by trying not to think of whether a piece is simple or difficult, but whether or not the sound/feel etc of it appeals to me as a piece of music. If it does appeal, then that will provide the motivation not only to learn it, but to play it as well as I can, whether that takes a week or several years. I think I'm much more keen on playing stuff in such a way that it sounds good musically than I am on making "progress" in the technical difficulty sense. I get more pleasure trying to play simple music well, hopefully with sensitivity and integrity, than from playing complicated music in a stilted or mechanical fashion. Do you write your own pieces? It is a different sort of challenge, but a very rewarding one! You have only yourself to please, no-one knows what the piece is "supposed" to sound like, but if anyone else should enjoy the result, then that's a pleasant bonus. Excellent thread Alison - looking forward to more responses! Keith A very good question and some very good answers. As a relative newcomer to the guitar, I have found that trying harder pieces can produce some surprising improvement, resulting in no less surprising satisfaction. It is easy, though, to get bogged down. As with the standard approach to clearing in trays: while it is important to tackle the most difficult tasks, you need regularly to reward yourself with more pleasurable, easier jobs. Putting aside the tougher stuff from time to time, to play something you know you can manage quite well, is a boost to morale and enthusiasm. And as Keith says, practice improves performance of even the more straightforward pieces, reinforcing the virtuous circle. BTW, I hadn't realised that there are more than three chords: I have more to learn than I thought... Brian
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Dec 6, 2013 16:08:33 GMT
Good thread and one which we all encounter I'm sure.
Like many things you are learning its a question of balance. You need to enjoy what you have achieved as well as trying to achieve more. So there's nothing wrong (and a whole lot right) in spending a lot of your time playing stuff you know well; and of course possibly adding a few embellishments that you've recently learnt from other stuff. Equally, throwing in both new songs that simply use the skills you've got; or new techniques that stretch you is important and, as above, will enhance your enjoyment of what you already do well.
Another thing I've learnt is that its important not to beat yourself up if you just can't do something. I'm not naturally talented at this wonderful instrument and my limitations are frustrating. For example, I have never cracked doing barre chords successfully (and believe me its not through lack of trying). So my developing skills include finding ways of playing things which avoid the damned things, but which still sound OK to me as work-rounds. I find this particularly useful in fingerstyle where you don't need the full barred notes anyway.
So, part of the learning curve is dealing with your own limitations and making the best of them! And above all, making sure you always enjoy it. It MUSN'T become a chore. Keep mixing it up; the good, the bad and the ugly. (Some days it seems ugly takes over a bit ....)
I sometimes surprise myself by trying a song a gave up on a few years ago and finding that I can now do it; that feels great!
FFJ
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Dec 6, 2013 19:00:17 GMT
For me, I will attempt almost anything if I like it well enough, but quite often I find pieces with techniques that are either too advanced for me, or that require an ability level that I just can't achieve. I do like trying pieces that are 'too difficult' or otherwise beyond me because I learn things in the process and my overall skill level generally increases a little bit too. The bonus is, if I pull it off, it feels amazing and gives me a nice flashy piece to impress....well....the cat with I do find that I am better at attempting and conquering complex clawhammer banjo pieces than guitar pieces, so I tend to concentrate on those more.
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Dec 6, 2013 19:37:17 GMT
Thanks for your replies - It was really interesting to read about your different approaches. Some music I would never even attempt for technical reasons, e.g. a lot of Spanish music that would trigger my tendonitis problems if I even walked past the notation. I do find the full barre difficult, but a whole lot easier if I supplement the wizened flesh on my finger by wrapping a couple of plasters round it. Anyway, having had a little think about your responses, I've sort of decided on a plan:-
Put the Barricades to one side for now with a view to having another go in the future, and hope that I have learned something from the attempt.
Dig out some tunes that I've tried before - may be able to play them better than the last time - shorter pieces from the in-tray. One of these will be a Carcassi study that Sal Bonavita aka hersoveela does something really fun with, and I'm going to post it in a minute.
Start something new but don't spend too much time on it. See if it will come in its own time.
Keith - I've never tried to write music - only the odd daft poem for amusement. I wouldn't know where to begin. I'd feel completely at a loss, as I would if presented with a blank canvas and paint. I can only paint if it's by numbers.
PS What's a chord?
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Dec 6, 2013 19:44:03 GMT
It's a rather fetching and fashionable type of trouser
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Dec 6, 2013 20:36:40 GMT
An corduroy shirts are on off at Aldi this Sunday, I kid you not.... @missclarketree, with regards to writing music just do what I do ... Nick a tune from someone else
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