missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Dec 18, 2013 19:42:06 GMT
The Seagull website recommends that strings should only be altered by one gauge either way, otherwise it could put the wrong amount of tension on the neck. But don't alternative tunings create a much bigger difference in tension? Does it matter? Alison, They don't quite say that on their website. This is what they say: "Can I use a heavier string gauge other than the Phosphor Bronze Lights you ship the guitars with? Yes. You can go up or down one gauge, usually without needing to readjust your truss rod, however if you use a much heavier or lighter gauge this will put different amounts of tension on the neck so an adjustment may be needed. When changing string gauge allow some time for the guitar to settle and then if needed have the truss rod adjusted by a qualified technician." Erm . . not sure in what way I've got it wrong - unless, for me, the "wrong" amount of tension is one that would necessitate an adjustment.
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Luthier
Aemulor et ambitiosior
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Post by davewhite on Dec 18, 2013 23:06:15 GMT
Alison, They don't quite say that on their website. This is what they say: "Can I use a heavier string gauge other than the Phosphor Bronze Lights you ship the guitars with? Yes. You can go up or down one gauge, usually without needing to readjust your truss rod, however if you use a much heavier or lighter gauge this will put different amounts of tension on the neck so an adjustment may be needed. When changing string gauge allow some time for the guitar to settle and then if needed have the truss rod adjusted by a qualified technician." Erm . . not sure in what way I've got it wrong - unless, for me, the "wrong" amount of tension is one that would necessitate an adjustment. They talk about "different amounts of tension" rather than "the wrong amount of tension" and don't say "strings should only be altered by one gauge either way" but say that "you can go a gauge or so either side without having to adjust the truss rod" and that if you go beyond that you may have to adjust the truss rod. I personally wouldn't like to go more than one gauge higher but they don't say there that you shouldn't/can't.
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Post by colan on Dec 19, 2013 9:19:52 GMT
missclarktree; Very wise. I think it's far more important to explore the sounds available to you in normal tuning before venturing into ' tailored ' musical moods. Plenty of time for that later. The first position Emaj ' shape ' used up and down the full length of the neck as a 'barre ' chord exercises all four fingers and gives you access to the majors and minors. It's meat and three veg. The directly confrontational approach has proven beneficial for phobias. As a starting point you might try imagining your guitar neck as large banana and the truss rod as EU regulations. Dave's addition widens the debate somewhat although I'm not a qualified technician myself. Read more: acousticsoundboard.co.uk/thread/2077/alternative-tunings-affect-guitar?page=1&scrollTo=24669#ixzz2nuQyFd9h
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Dec 19, 2013 19:24:07 GMT
Erm . . not sure in what way I've got it wrong - unless, for me, the "wrong" amount of tension is one that would necessitate an adjustment. They talk about "different amounts of tension" rather than "the wrong amount of tension" and don't say "strings should only be altered by one gauge either way" but say that "you can go a gauge or so either side without having to adjust the truss rod" and that if you go beyond that you may have to adjust the truss rod. I personally wouldn't like to go more than one gauge higher but they don't say there that you shouldn't/can't. I'm wondering if we might be a little bit at cross purposes here, Dave. I acknowledge what Seagull advise, and would certainly abide by their recommendations, which don't address the issue of altered tunings. But the question is, what to make of it? As a luthier I'm sure that judging the right strings and adjusting the truss rod accordingly holds no terrors for you. But for a beginner like myself who has only just heard about truss rods and string gauges, to alter the gauge to a degree that would require truss rod adjustment would, I think, be unwise. When I saw this advice I couldn't help wondering, if the string gauge needs to be taken into consideration, bearing in mind whether one would wish to incur the necessity for a truss rod adjustment, how much more of a difference in tension might be created by using alternative tunings. And I also wondered whether this kind of advice would be applicable to most guitars or specifically to Seagull?
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Akquarius
Cheerfully Optimistic
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Post by Akquarius on Dec 20, 2013 20:00:25 GMT
As I said before, I'm no guitar tech. From my point of view, if you keep to the standard string set and tune the guitar down to, say CGDGCD, you would reduce the tension and the neck would bow slightly downwards. This would result in a lower string action, which would create a buzzing sound when playing. As long as there is no buzz, there probably is no harm done. If the strings start to buzz, you can either tune back and wait 24 hours for the neck to settle, or use a set of strings with a higher gauge, or let somebody reset the truss rod if you don't want to do it yourself. If anybody thinks I'm completely wrong here, please correct me
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Post by earwighoney on Dec 20, 2013 21:08:17 GMT
I tune/retune my acoustic guitar a lot, I use Open C/D/G tunings and variants. I only ever tune down (NEVER tune up), and always try to keep the guitar in the same tuning at the end of the day be it DADGAD or CGCGAD.
If you want to use 'funny' tunings - use them.
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Post by scripsit on Dec 21, 2013 1:14:32 GMT
I've used a wide variety of open and alternative tunings on several very different guitars. The only tuning 'up' from regular I've ever done is to take the B string up to a C, which is a part of some tunings where the bass E is dropped back to a D or C. If you look at string tension guides (there are many on the web) this is actually lowering the overall tension on the guitar top from conventional tuning, as do all of the other common alternative tunings I've heard of.
I've used 0.13-0.56 strings on all of my guitars without issues, even though this is now considered to be quite a heavy gauge (still marked on the packet as 'mediums'). The lessening of tension on the bass strings in particular in alternative tunings is an issue in itself, in that light gauge strings can easily feel and sound 'floppy' because they are slackened from normal, no matter how the truss rod is adjusted. This is probably the main reason that players put heavier strings than standard on their guitars.
I've never found it necessary to alter the truss rod because of alternative tunings, even on some elderly guitars which are left in them for weeks at a time, and we're talking a wide variety of quality and manufacture here. In my experience, changes in ambient temperature and humidity have a much greater effect on the neck bow/bend than specific tunings.
When you settle on a string set that suits you, it is worthwhile having someone experienced at guitar maintenance and repair (a 'guidar tech') do a 'setup' for you on that guitar. That usually involves some tweaks of the truss rod if you request a specific 'action' or height of the strings above the fretboard. If you often play in a particular tuning this is the time to tell the expert this, because some other things can be done to get the intonation of the bass strings right at this point (in my opinion this is a much more significant issue).
This might cost up to about $A100 here, and does not involve anything scarey being done to the guitar. The hard bit is becoming experienced enough to know what you actually want to request in the way of feel: most of us put up with the guitars as they come out of the box and it's not until you've been playing a while that you realise that you actually prefer the action higher/lower or want to be able to hit the strings softer/harder and so on.
North American retail customers seem to be of a litigious nature, and this might be why Seagull puts so much energy into the discussion about neck tension. Any modern factory made guitar from a reputable brand should deal quite easily with common tunings, especially if you are using and feel comfortable with 0.12 strings or lighter.
Oh, and Merry Christmas everyone: I've been too busy with work and other stuff to be here much lately, but I appreciate the space to share our love of acoustic music.
Kym
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Post by earwighoney on Dec 21, 2013 10:53:00 GMT
I tune/retune my acoustic guitar a lot, I use Open C/D/G tunings and variants. I only ever tune down (NEVER tune up), and always try to keep the guitar in the same tuning at the end of the day be it DADGAD or CGCGAD. If you want to use 'funny' tunings - use them. I meant to write I only ever tune down for all strings aside from the B, which I do tune up to C... Oops.
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Post by slasher on Jan 17, 2014 14:37:53 GMT
Alt tunings, deffo a good excuse for more guitars! I have a 2nd guitar kept in DADGAD. A pro guitarist I used to see quite often had two as mine when performing. He reckoned that changing to dropped-D on the standard tuned guitar and changing the DADGAD to Open D were both easily done so he had in effect four choices of tuning quickly available. He did think that major retuning was not good for the stabilty of guitars and strings. I also find it annoying if a professional spends a lot of time tuning/retuning to various alt tunings as I've paid to hear him play, not tune, and feel that as a pro they should simply have more guitars on stage.
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