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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2014 20:57:36 GMT
I never really get the proper hang of dealing with my thumb nail (on the picking hand if it's not obvious). I've tried a lot of things - different items to do the shaping and filing, different grit wet and dry sandpaper, different levels of bevelling of the nail tip, different length nails. I've not yet arrived at a workable theory to inform what I do with my nails, or with the thumb nail specifically. I find my fingernails are best about 1.5mm over the finger, as in 1.5mm of white nail area. Much shorter than this and there's not enough brightness, much longer and the brightness is too plentiful and there isn't quite the feeling of connection with the guitar plus the nail's at risk of breakage, although my nails are massively stronger than they were in about 2005 when they were pretty feeble, probably due to dietary silliness.
I've watched videos and see that hardly any acoustic guitarist is holding his hand in a slightly painful or awkward 'classical' manner, for example on James Taylor's website you can see in his lessons section that he's picking with the side of his nail. You do seem, though, to get a bit firmer bass by having the thumbnail straight toward the string, i.e. the thumb at a 45 degree angle to the string seen from the top rather than nearly parallel. So I'm half wondering if over time twisting the thumb round a bit can become more comfortable like barring eventually does and like playing chords with long stretches can, or whether to just say if a more casual thumb is good enough for James Taylor it's good enough for me.
I've tried having no nails and hoping for picking hand calluses to develop, which to an extent they do. It's another type of sound and probably not bad if you don't mind playing loud (and maybe with a slightly higher action), which I'm not keen to do in my cardboard-walled council bedsit.
Every now and then by accident almost I arrive at an ideal thumb nail. One thing I've done is to sand/file almost a diagonal, though still with a rounded tip, so that with the hand held casually more nail is striking the string. I'm sure that some degrees of bevelling make for a better sound than others, like how the bevel on those newish Dunlop Max Grip nylon picks' bevel makes for a great tone where the green plastic Dunlop .88 picks have no bevel and make a sort of thunk-y attack. I haven't worked out consistently if bevelling so the tip of the nail is pretty thin is better, or whether the bevelling needs to be slight. At different times maybe different variables have worked, given that my five guitars have different action and string materials.
I've used a thumbpick but I don't like the audible clicky attack - which still seems tolerated by professional players, e.g. Will Ackerman - and they're not getting any more comfortable over the years.
Tonight I've had a mess about with my nail again and it's now a bit short, about 2mm, but is sounding better at the end of the experiments than at the beginning, just about. I've seen very long thumb nails but I find mine annoying when they're long. It doesn't feel like there's as much control though it could just be then that I'm not used to the length and should force myself to become familiar.
It sort of relevant so I'll add that I'm using a cedar Stonebridge GS20-CM orchestral-size guitar, a mahogany Sigma 000-type, a Squire Telecaster and a Crafter CT120 which has the dimensions of a Les Paul but nylon strings and under-saddle pickup. I may have therefore become a bit more fussy having stopped using dreadnoughts due to shoulder pain, when they had helped the bass along with less effort from me.
So I'd like to be able to pool thoughts and techniques here if I can.
Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2014 21:24:23 GMT
I'll write a more detailed response a little later, but just to say I have recently totally changed the way I shape my thumb nail. For years I have been shaping my thumb nail such that there is a slight angle (about 45 degrees) on the left as its strikes the string. But after a lot of thought, I tried sloping it, just ever so slightly, on the right. This kind of mirrors whats happening with my other nails. I find the best tone is to be got when the nail catches the string on the angle, and then is released at the thicker part of the nail.
I need photos I know, to show this. I also have to say that unlike 'traditional' classical players, who sometimes play with an arched wrist, I adopt a slightly more contemporary (Alexander technique informed) position of a totally straight wrist, and almost all the articulation coming from the top joint of the finger, very little hand movement at all.
Fascinating subject nails, and will be interested to read how other people do it,
Robbie
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2014 21:28:29 GMT
Oh I forgot to add- the tools I use to shape my nails? Firstly a very course double sided nail soft nail file (easily found in most supermarkets) and a 6 sectioned thicker file (from boots), where I only really use the course side for finishing off the shaping, the next side for smoothing, and the next smoothest one for buffing. And here's my little trick- I get some wet and dry paper (I forget the exact grit, but dark grey in colour) and I actually fold it over the string of my guitar and start plucking with the relevant nail. This has done wonders in getting the final shape exactly right.
Robbie
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2014 21:44:11 GMT
That trick sounds promising, and makes sense.
(Is that a Lakewood you've got there? There's a used lefty D1 online as of today for £495 and I'm half keen, half panicky about it. If it was a 000 I'd have bought it as soon as the shop opened.)
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Jan 27, 2014 21:45:21 GMT
I think a lot depends on your playing position and the shape of your thumb. In classical playing I find that holding my wrist away from the face of the guitar just puts my thumb in a reasonably good position to hit the strings. I don't find it awkward or painful because that's how I've learned.
I have noticed that many steel string players keep their wrist very close to the guitar surface, perhaps because it makes it easier for palm muting (or damping), and for that percussive string slapping thing (example below). In that position (which gives me a sore shoulder) only the side of my thumb would be able to reach the strings, which is when a thumb pick would be needed.
Scott Tennant has sections on nail shaping in 'Pumping Nylon', and Hersoveela (Sal Bonavita) has Youtube videos on the subject, but they both adapt it according to the shape of each nail.
I suppose there's no substitute for trial and error at the end of the day when all's said and done.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jan 27, 2014 23:09:54 GMT
I can never get completely happy with my thumbnail shape - I need it to be 4mm or so beyond the pad to work for me, and I usually slope it so only the bit nearest the string is actually that long. I strike the string with the side of the nail.
A lot of the time I just give in and use a thumbpick - I found Dunlop clicky, Planet Waves less so. I used to shorten and reprofile these a lot, but much prefer Fred Kelly Speed Picks (not clicky) which I don't shorten at all.
Fingernails no problem, around 2mm beyond end of flesh pad and symmetrically rounded. I use emery paper and whatever nail files (soft) with varied grade grits I have, makig sure I finish off with the smooth rubber buffer.
Keith
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Jan 28, 2014 10:50:41 GMT
I don't have any finger nails, well I do but they are very short so it's mainly flesh I use. I always hanker after the sound Keith, Robbie, Mark, Dave and other forumites produce but when I grow them as soon as the nail touches a string I wince at the sound and quickly file them down. One of my favourite guitar players is Laurence Juber and when I found out he uses 'flesh' I stopped bothering about it especially when I read the Jim Tozier post ( here) who is also a terrific player. So I suppose I am saying, with respect to the others, that playing with nails is not necessarily the 'holy grail'. Hope this helps with your minor dilemma Phil
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alig
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Post by alig on Jan 28, 2014 11:11:56 GMT
I don't have any finger nails, well I do but they are very short so it's mainly flesh I use. I always hanker after the sound Keith, Robbie, Mark, Dave and other forumites produce but when I grow them as soon as the nail touches a string I wince at the sound and quickly file them down. One of my favourite guitar players is Laurence Juber and when I found out he uses 'flesh' I stopped bothering about it especially when I read the Jim Tozier post ( here) who is also a terrific player. So I suppose I am saying, with respect to the others, that playing with nails is not necessarily the 'holy grail'. Hope this helps with your minor dilemma Phil Horses for courses.
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Post by cottonopolis on Jan 28, 2014 11:15:46 GMT
I can never get completely happy with my thumbnail shape - I need it to be 4mm or so beyond the pad to work for me, and I usually slope it so only the bit nearest the string is actually that long. I strike the string with the side of the nail. A lot of the time I just give in and use a thumbpick - I found Dunlop clicky, Planet Waves less so. I used to shorten and reprofile these a lot, but much prefer Fred Kelly Speed Picks (not clicky) which I don't shorten at all. Fingernails no problem, around 2mm beyond end of flesh pad and symmetrically rounded. I use emery paper and whatever nail files (soft) with varied grade grits I have, makig sure I finish off with the smooth rubber buffer. Keith Hi Kieth, I had never heard of Fred Kelly picks before but see that eagle music sell them. How do they size up to dunlop and Zooks if you have used them? Cheers Steve.
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Post by leoroberts on Jan 28, 2014 11:38:20 GMT
but much prefer Fred Kelly Speed Picks (not clicky) which I don't shorten at all. I've succumbed and ordered some from Eagle ... not in stock at the moment, but due in the next few days ... If I don't like 'em I'll blame ocarolan and wait until I'm next up for a Friday Forum Giveaway
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Post by ocarolan on Jan 28, 2014 11:39:21 GMT
I can never get completely happy with my thumbnail shape - I need it to be 4mm or so beyond the pad to work for me, and I usually slope it so only the bit nearest the string is actually that long. I strike the string with the side of the nail. A lot of the time I just give in and use a thumbpick - I found Dunlop clicky, Planet Waves less so. I used to shorten and reprofile these a lot, but much prefer Fred Kelly Speed Picks (not clicky) which I don't shorten at all. Fingernails no problem, around 2mm beyond end of flesh pad and symmetrically rounded. I use emery paper and whatever nail files (soft) with varied grade grits I have, making sure I finish off with the smooth rubber buffer. Keith Hi Kieth, I had never heard of Fred Kelly picks before but see that eagle music sell them. How do they size up to dunlop and Zooks if you have used them? Cheers Steve. Hi Steve- if you literally mean "size", I did use Dunlop large ones, but the Fred Kelly Speed Pick large is too loose for me so I use the "normal" one, which is fine - more comfortable than anything else I've tried. (Dunlop, Planet Waves, Zookies) FKSPs come in three thicknesses/bendinesses, and I much prefer the heavy - the others seem too flexible and thin sounding in use for me. The contour of the blade on these picks is just right for me as it comes - the only thumbick I've not had to reshape. Hardly any clickiness on the strings, and the tone I get from them matches that from my fingernails - ie. a little clearer and incisive than Dunlops even after the radical surgery I submitted Dunlops et al to. I did try the Zookies, in various angles, but didn't like the angulation, the rigidity of the blade or the clunky tone I got from them. Worth trying Steve - you may not like them of course, but they are spot on for me! Keith
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Jan 28, 2014 11:51:52 GMT
I don't have any finger nails, well I do but they are very short so it's mainly flesh I use. I always hanker after the sound Keith, Robbie, Mark, Dave and other forumites produce but when I grow them as soon as the nail touches a string I wince at the sound and quickly file them down. One of my favourite guitar players is Laurence Juber and when I found out he uses 'flesh' I stopped bothering about it especially when I read the Jim Tozier post ( here) who is also a terrific player. So I suppose I am saying, with respect to the others, that playing with nails is not necessarily the 'holy grail'. Hope this helps with your minor dilemma Phil Horses for courses. More than one way to skin a cat.
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Post by cottonopolis on Jan 28, 2014 12:11:15 GMT
Hi Kieth, I had never heard of Fred Kelly picks before but see that eagle music sell them. How do they size up to dunlop and Zooks if you have used them? Cheers Steve. Hi Steve- if you literally mean "size", I did use Dunlop large ones, but the Fred Kelly Speed Pick large is too loose for me so I use the "normal" one, which is fine - more comfortable than anything else I've tried. (Dunlop, Planet Waves, Zookies) FKSPs come in three thicknesses/bendinesses, and I much prefer the heavy - the others seem too flexible and thin sounding in use for me. The contour of the blade on these picks is just right for me as it comes - the only thumbick I've not had to reshape. Hardly any clickiness on the strings, and the tone I get from them matches that from my fingernails - ie. a little clearer and incisive than Dunlops even after the radical surgery I submitted Dunlops et al to. I did try the Zookies, in various angles, but didn't like the angulation, the rigidity of the blade or the clunky tone I got from them. Worth trying Steve - you may not like them of course, but they are spot on for me! Keith Thanks for that Kieth, i will order some from Eagle . Can`t be bit at 99p. Cheers Steve.
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alig
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Post by alig on Jan 28, 2014 12:13:28 GMT
but much prefer Fred Kelly Speed Picks (not clicky) which I don't shorten at all. I've succumbed and ordered some from Eagle ... not in stock at the moment, but due in the next few days ... If I don't like 'em I'll blame ocarolan and wait until I'm next up for a Friday Forum Giveaway Ditto and curses - you got there before me on the 'Fri Giveaway' wheeze.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 17:52:15 GMT
"In classical playing I find that holding my wrist away from the face of the guitar just puts my thumb in a reasonably good position to hit the strings. I don't find it awkward or painful because that's how I've learned."
That might be the one bit of envy/ regret I have about not having the classical training then! (I'm glad there was no one to tell me to keep my thumb round the back of the neck though...)
Thanks for joining me in this, funny that the diagonal nail I mentioned seems not uncommon, i thought I'd invented it... The thumbpicks mentioned that Eagle Music do I'd seen on eBay but thought they looked a bit elaborate and gizmo-ish but maybe I'll try them then. I've got a few of the small Fred Kellu thumbpicks and they're certainly less noisy than the Dunlop. In the mid-late 80s I was getting these really small ones that was almost sharp. They were right-handed and not ideal for me before some shaping, as a left-handed person, but I've never seen them since to experiment further now I'm not as ham-fisted.
I quite fancy getting my thumb broken and having it set wrong so it faces the right way - that'd be professional misconduct I could encourage.
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