missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Jun 22, 2014 18:05:46 GMT
To be honest I struggle to hear any difference between the capos, but that might say more about my ear that the actual capos, or pehaps the difference is more obvious when heard direct and not through a computer.
When learning a new tune, do you make a conscious effort to memorize and, if so, at what stage?
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Post by vikingblues on Jun 22, 2014 19:06:35 GMT
I only opened my Butterfly book this last week, and was quite taken with the first track (Coming Home). I have to say that's an enjoyable "version" (for want of a better word). There's a couple of places where it sounds a little "rushed" to the cd track, but overall, spot on :-) Cheers Michael - I had exactly that reaction to first hearing "Coming Home" too and I'll agree 100% with your comment about my version being more "rushed". To play the slower tunes at Keiths pace is one of the trickiest things I've found so far with the "Butterfly" collection. His skill at playing slower but at the same time making the most out of every note is most impressive, and incredibly difficult to emulate. I'm hoping that with practice, and as I get better I will be able to slow down the tempo and not have the tune sounding dull as a result. Also I think that the slower I play the more even and controlled my melody line notes have to be and the more flaws in my technique show - I know for sure that's a skill I have to develop much more. These "Road Trips" books are proving to be a very useful learning experience. To be honest I struggle to hear any difference between the capos, but that might say more about my ear that the actual capos, or pehaps the difference is more obvious when heard direct and not through a computer. When learning a new tune, do you make a conscious effort to memorize and, if so, at what stage? You're right Alison - I have to agree the difference is rather "subtle" on the recorded versions. Partly due to the recording being on what is essentially a pretty cheap Yamaha Pocketrak PR7 portable recorder. What I can hear on the recording that's different is there's less sustain, particularly on bass and middle notes, so there is also less resonance and interaction of those notes and the ones that follow. It is more noticeable for real to my ears when I'm playing, and the way there's extra resonance encourages me to hang onto notes a bit longer and add a bit more variety. Well - that's the way it seems to be. I tend to over-analse things, I know. At present I'm doing very little memorising. So far it's really only the particularly tricky parts that I do that for, so I can avoid looking at the tab and look at the fretboard, when it gets complicated. I'm right out of practice with playing from memory - all my time with lessons doing classical guitar quite a few years back was all sight reading. Then the last 6 or so years I'd been playing improvs and blues stuff which essentially had very little needing memorised - other than scales and basic chords - the main skill to be developed was hearing a line in my head and being able to play it on the fly. I'm getting a bit old for memorising new things I fear - too mush stuffed into memory already and new stuff bounces off so easily - a bit worryingly so with issues around memory and dementia pretty rife in my family tree. Mark
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Post by vikingblues on Jul 6, 2014 9:28:01 GMT
I'm continuing to work at these two fascinating, but extremely challenging books of music. I've not been able to advance the ones I'm trying in Keiths book to a stage where a further update is merited. There is a lot of work for the pinkie on the fretting hand on them. That is the finger most affected by arthritic twinges, so in having to protect it I'm not able to put in the hours I'd like to for speedier progress. I've maybe gone for a tricky choice in "Lament" as the note production has to be so very under control in a piece with that slow a tempo and relatively few notes. While continuing to work on the ones I've already documented in this thread from Marks book, I've been also making early progress on two more pieces. I think up to the stage when they've scrubbed up just about well enough to see the light of day here. Rather flawed, as I'll go into. Linked below to Box.com. First off - "The Travellers Tale" which I've been working on for a couple of weeks. I know I've called it Stage 2 in the file name, but Stage 1 wasn't right for public airing. The Travellers TaleOne of Mark Thomsons own compositions in the book - and beautiful resonances and musical lines and I hope I've captured just a little of that. Not sure if Box.coms address for the page having "woe" at the end is a good sign! Second - "Leaving Stoer" which I started trying to play about a week ago. Leaving Stoer - first airingIvan Drever arr by Mark. I'm finding the resonances of a Scots / Celtic hue in so many of the pieces in Marks book make for compulsive playing and like some sort of addiction once tried it's impossible not to keep going back for more - however tricky they are. Apart from an initial listen to the pieces in these books I tend not to go back and listen to Keiths or Marks own recordings until I've committed a half decent sounding piece to hard disk. Good at having to work at getting timing right from the notes on the page. So I listened to Marks two recordings just now. I'm still happy about the progress made to date, BUT Marks versions highlight a few things very clearly for me. On "Leaving Stoer" Mark Thomson has a harp like quality to his playing, smooth and flowing ornamentation, and a serenity and lyrical quality. So there's a few things to work on as I have none of them at present. On "Travellers Tale" I hear notes being allowed to linger, an emotional and reflective feeling and again that lyrical quality - all AWOL on my recordings. Strange mixture - inspiring to hear and quite intimidating in demonstrating just how far there can be to travel. All about being a musician and not just playing some notes. I remind myself I've only been seriously and regularly playing acoustic guitar since November last year. One thing the two recordings have in common - both on the Tanglewood TW45 rather than my usual TW73 Parlour. I've put Newtone Heritage low tension 12s on the TW45 - it's been a real plus for me and it's almost like having a new guitar. I'll quite likely do a separate post on this matter. Mark
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jul 6, 2014 12:59:40 GMT
Coming on nicely, Mark.
Whilst striving to improve is a good thing, don't beat yourself up too much over the differences between your versions and MT's. MT is a complete master of touch, tone and timing - far more so IMHO than many "name" players in this style, some of whom tend to sound sterile to me in their playing, skilful though they undoubtedly may be.
Keith
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Post by vikingblues on Jul 10, 2014 7:20:31 GMT
Coming on nicely, Mark. Whilst striving to improve is a good thing, don't beat yourself up too much over the differences between your versions and MT's. MT is a complete master of touch, tone and timing - far more so IMHO than many "name" players in this style, some of whom tend to sound sterile to me in their playing, skilful though they undoubtedly may be. Keith Thanks Keith - I'm pretty relaxed on the level I'm hitting to be honest, though I do have desire to try to get much better. It is good to be aware that there's a lot of potential to be unlocked if the right keys can be found. It makes for a hobby obsession that can last a lifetime. I'd agree 100% with what you say about MT. A CD version of his Solway Sunset is a major player in the car CD and is at least as good as any offerings I've got by "name" players. Mark
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Jul 10, 2014 10:23:33 GMT
And, for some of the new folks on here who may not be aware of markthomson and his music, and because he's way to 'umble to mention it himself, The Solway Sunset album can be downloaded here - and it's a 'name your own price' job. However much you decide to pay (and you will want to download it having listened to a couple of the tracks) it will be money you will have spent very wisely indeed....
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Post by vikingblues on Jul 10, 2014 19:45:43 GMT
Well said Leo. The Mark Thomson Solway Sunset album should be linked at all available opportunities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the meanwhilst .... The "Butterfly" book of Keiths fell open at "Caroline's". It being about time I tried standard tuning for a change I've had a few days with it. Some muscle memory to kick in still - particularly when it gets busier with much more notes and more rapid notes at that on the second page. It did take a couple of days for my fingers to get used to going from (1) D and C being played on the second string while playing an F# on the bottom string to (2) G on top and bottom strings while the C on the 2nd string is played and a pull off is made to the open B. -----3--- -3-1-1>0- --------- --------- --------- -2---3--- Looked simple but for a ridiculous number of goes I just couldn't leave the F# on the bottom string to hit the G. I'm trying to make my mind up on the best guitar for the piece. The TW73 has the edge I think where there's just a bass line and melody line on the go. But where more complex parts with frequent use of 3+ notes kick in I am preferring the TW45. Any thoughts gratefully received. The following has TW73 playing opening then the TW45. Then the second part with the extra notes on first the TW73 then the TW45. Choice of TW guitars for Caroline'sI apologise for the errors in playing. I am enjoying playing this tune (however badly), and I do like hearing the real thing a lot. A very good composition Keith. Mark
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jul 10, 2014 22:16:35 GMT
Thanks for kind comments Mark, and glad you're enjoying the tune.
Sounds like you're making good progress with it - the bass line is sustaining nicely for much of the time, and as a result of your hard work you've got the C-B pull off etc pretty much sorted too. I often play this piece with capo at fret 7 on 14 fret to body guitars - I find a lot of the fingering easier there (especially the B tune) and, with the right guitar, it can chime really nicely.
Looking forward to hearing the whole piece!
Keith
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Post by creamburmese on Jul 14, 2014 20:20:59 GMT
Love the Roslin Castle and would like to try to learn it too... where can I buy the Travellers Tale collection? (hopefully sheet music....) Julie
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Jul 14, 2014 20:51:14 GMT
Love the Roslin Castle and would like to try to learn it too... where can I buy the Travellers Tale collection? (hopefully sheet music....) Julie Julie, there are two books which have been published as a result of activity on this rather friendly little forum ... "The Traveller's Tale (original compositions and arrangements for fingerstyle guitar in DADGAD)" by markthomson (which comes with a CD) and "Butterfly - a selection of 17 original pieces for fingerstyle guitar" by ocarolan (which comes with a CD and a DVD!) Both books have the tunes fully tabbed - and also in notation. "Roslin Castle" is in Mark's book of choons. Both books were inspired by davewhite's guitars that went on a forum road trip (there'll be a thread somewehere but I'm just too lazy to find it!) Now, where to get 'em ... I suggest a message to davewhite might hold the answer to that question - as it is he that published them
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Post by vikingblues on Jul 15, 2014 6:17:52 GMT
Thank you Leo. 'Twas davewhite I contacted about "The Travellers Tale" collection of Mark Thomsons compositions and arrangements. With the "Butterfly collection I contacted ocarolan (Keith Chesterton) who composed all the pieces in the "Butterfly" collection. I've found them to be too VERY good sets of tunes to challenge me and to be rewarding in the music that can be got from them. I've never found anything of a better standard commercially available. Mark
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Post by vikingblues on Jul 15, 2014 6:26:50 GMT
Thanks for kind comments Mark, and glad you're enjoying the tune. Sounds like you're making good progress with it - the bass line is sustaining nicely for much of the time, and as a result of your hard work you've got the C-B pull off etc pretty much sorted too. I often play this piece with capo at fret 7 on 14 fret to body guitars - I find a lot of the fingering easier there (especially the B tune) and, with the right guitar, it can chime really nicely. Looking forward to hearing the whole piece! Keith Thank you Keith - I appreciate the helpful comments I am getting from you to help my struggles. I've made a bit of progress on the more complex part of the piece but it's still a fair way of being a level to air here. It has been useful doing test recordings of it, and finding that, although I thought I was maintaining tempo on the complex part, I wasn't. I've been trying the capo a bit and it does help the ease of playing a bit. I'm so unused to using a capo over so many years I forget about using one, even when it's suggested in the notes for a piece I'm learning. I will get back to learning it soon - once I've got this current spell of F# partial capo improv playing out of my system. Mark.
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Post by vikingblues on Apr 12, 2017 6:27:07 GMT
An old thread back to life here, but it reflects the way I have been trying to play the pieces in these collections by Mark Thomson and by Keith over a few years now. I keep returning to them as I enjoy the pieces. There are challenging tunes and I'm pretty sure in another 3 years time I'll still feel there's improvements to be made in those pieces that I can at least have a reasonable stab at. I've been trying to make a decent recording of "Lament" in Keiths "Butterfly" collection this last week, but every time I hit the record button my fingers go off in all strange directions. I will manage a version of this soon. Definitely. Well, probably. Maybe! I did manage in testing out the Guild Jumbo Junior before it went into it's GigBag to wait for my birthday to get a version of "Leaving Stoer" onto the Zoom H4n. It turns out it's a massive contrast to the version linked 6 posts above here on 10 July 2014. It also shows how over the months of going back to a piece and gradually working on it you can end up with such a big change while not being aware of the change taking place, particularly tempo. A time of 2:06 going to to 1:47 doesn't look like much on paper but it does to the ears. Damn it though - it's still far from perfect and I've replaced hesitancy with fluffed notes, possibly due to too much haste. It still lacks the harp like quality, smooth and flowing ornamentation, and a serenity and lyrical quality that Mark Thomson brings to it. I do seem to now be in a terrible hurry to leave Stoer! Maybe needing to get out of town quick before the lynch mob, enraged by my murdering music, arrives. It was being played on a guitar I have yet to get used to as well, he said - clutching at straws. So this is what it sounded like on the Guild. 20 days to go before I can play the Guild again. "Leaving Stoer" - Test of Guild Jumbo JuniorI will have to see about easing back on this a bit and re recording it. Along with "Lament". Be warned! Mark
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Apr 12, 2017 8:59:33 GMT
Hi Mark I enjoyed that whilst sitting here still in my dressing gown drinking coffee Granted there are one or two fluffed notes, as you pointed out, but I think its well on the road to being finished. Are you playing it direct from the tab/music or have you memorised it? The reason I ask is that I always try to learn something properly i.e. memorise it, all the way through and perhaps simplify it in places until it is under my fingers so to say. After I have done that and I can play it smoothly I then go back and try to incorporate more of the ornamentation. If I really struggle with little bits of ornamentation I basically forget them and don't get hung up about them - the overall melody, feel and flow of the piece is more important to me. For example triplets that I know Mark can do I don't even bother trying Cheers Phil
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Post by vikingblues on Apr 12, 2017 20:08:14 GMT
Hi Mark I enjoyed that whilst sitting here still in my dressing gown drinking coffee Granted there are one or two fluffed notes, as you pointed out, but I think its well on the road to being finished. Are you playing it direct from the tab/music or have you memorised it? The reason I ask is that I always try to learn something properly i.e. memorise it, all the way through and perhaps simplify it in places until it is under my fingers so to say. After I have done that and I can play it smoothly I then go back and try to incorporate more of the ornamentation. If I really struggle with little bits of ornamentation I basically forget them and don't get hung up about them - the overall melody, feel and flow of the piece is more important to me. For example triplets that I know Mark can do I don't even bother trying Cheers Phil Hi Phil - thank you for listening and for your comments - it's very helpful and encouraging. You asked if I've memorised the tune. At which point I have to look sheepish and admit to not being able to recall when I last managed to play a full guitar piece from memory! I try to persuade myself it's down to the lack of mental energy resulting from too much "mental" work (in both senses of the word) in an employment I have no appetite or enthusiasm for. I suppose the proof will be what happens when (and if) I retire. I do have real concerns which I try not to dwell on - having a father and uncle and their mother who all went down the path of dementia causes me unease on my memory problems. Perhaps one of the reasons I enjoy improvisation is that I don't feel my "skills" are compromised by having to read the music while playing. I agree very much with your views on ornamentation and also have to say that the skill with which Mart T uses ornamentation is immense. I got the Giltrap guitar out of it's case tonight and tried to play the piece as I normally would. I hear the result as somewhere between the old version and the recent Guild test one. I'm wondering why I played the Guild so much faster? Maybe something in the way the notes sounded and sustained caused the variation? Maybe it's just that I'm not used to the guitar. "Leaving Stoer" (GG Guitar Capo 3) One thing is for sure - the Guild and the Giltrap sound VERY different. Mark
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