maninashed
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Post by maninashed on May 31, 2016 21:33:45 GMT
I've been playing fingerstyle for about 3 years and have great fun playing pieces that I learn from tab. I've read about ornamentation and I can hammer-on and pull-off and I know a bit of the theory about mordants and reverse mordants and such like. I would like to be able to apply these in my playing to add more interest and individuality to my playing and move on a bit from just playing it straight from tab.
I played a DVD of Martin Simpson playing a Celtic medley today. I've got the tab and I could play the piece but when he plays it there's much more going on! I think now is the time to think about it a bit more.
I would be interested to know what you can tell me about ornamentation techniques, how and when to apply them, how to practice them to incorporate them naturally into my playing and anything else that might be relevant.
Thanks!
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on May 31, 2016 22:29:07 GMT
I don't think this is something that is easily learnable as such. It's more an instinct thing. But well worth delving into as you obviously wish to do - moving on from / breaking away from a totally tab orientated approach is a really good thing.
If you take the example of Celtic type choons then the ornamentation used is likely to be different on everyone's version you listen to.
Guitar is not a trad instrument for this kind of music, and so as well as using obvious guitaristic cliches as ornamentation, someone like Martin Simpson may well be attempting to replicate the ornamentation used on more trad versions of the tune as played on eg whistle, fiddle, pipes or harp, as well as using things that work easily on whatever particular tuning he might be using.
I reckon that the best,and also the most time consuming way learn about ornamentation is to listen to loads of trad tunes played on as many different instruments as poss. You'll notice that e.g. fiddle players twiddly bits are different from those used whistle players, simply as a result of the differences in how the notes are produced and the inherent limitations and strengths of each particular instrument.
Guitar can imitate some of these things, though not all. It can, however, do some things the more trad instruments can't.
So, immerse yourself totally in the genre (hate that word, sorry), not especially guitar related, until the music is in you - listen to loads of it, and the purer and tradder the better, and you'll develop a natural instinct for how and when to embellish it. Play guitar backup in sessions with fiddlers etc and get a feel for how the music works and flows. Once the music is in you, it can come out naturally in your playing.
No doubt there will be some book/dvd/youtube thing somewhere that will give you some basic building blocks, but they will prove to be only a temporary stop gap - developing a feel for the music will still be essential to enable you to use those blocks in a seemingly effortless and natural way.
Sorry this probably isn't a particularly helpful answer in the short term!
Blimey, I do go on don't I!?
Keith
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Post by scripsit on Jun 1, 2016 0:25:09 GMT
Simon Fox has a discussion about ornamentation suitable for Celtic guitar in his free online DADGAD book: www.playdadgad.com/dadgad/index.htmHe breaks down some common types and has some suggested exercises to get them into muscle memory. By the way, the transcriptions of his tunes (his regular website is at www.simonfoxguitar.com/) are delightful to play, and the majority of them include the detail of sometimes quite complicated ornamentation. I highly recommend paying for digital downloads of his albums, too. Kym
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Post by martinrowe on Jun 1, 2016 7:57:48 GMT
I agree with a lot of what Keith says. I remember reading once that the ornamentation used by old time Irish traditional fiddlers from one county was different than that used by those from another. I've always remembered this because, for me, it raises a lot of questions. I think it may mean that the ornamentation is your interpretation of the tune, and if it's your interpretation then this is where you can be original. The idea that music forever changes creeps in here - old time recordings only captured a moment in time. Learning the tune (copying?) is only a first step, ornamentation is the interesting part and is where someone has the opportunity to say something of their own. Is this why some people are said to never play the same song in the same way twice?
Of course, easier said than done, and never ending.
I don't know if that helps, but thanks for your post - it got me thinking.
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Post by vikingblues on Jun 4, 2016 9:11:42 GMT
Interesting post and it reminds me it's an area that I have meant to explore more and never seem to get around to.
As for the ornamentation not being written I'm sure it's often due to the ornamentation (a) being viewed as a personal touch by the individual player that is added to the music and (b) that for a lot of players the ornamentation will be different every time, will appear in different places and (c) vary according to the mood and feelings of the player. So, as Keith says, an instinct thing that will get better the more you feel how the musical genre works and flows.
This idea of the ornamentation being improvised appeals to me as it brings an extra creative element into the task of playing something that is more heavily defined and fixed.
The ornamentation is often just the last note of the melodic phrase going to a lower mordant* and back to the original. Or the same idea going to an upper mordant, though to me the lower mordant option usually sounds better on a guitar. Or a trill for as long as can be effective - either on the same string or adjacent strings.
* - definition on line as "a melodic embellishment consisting of a rapid alternation of a principal tone with the tone a half or a whole step below it"
It does seem with the mordant idea that the ornamental note is either a semi tone or a tone away from the melody note - but it can be more and depends on the style of music and on the tuning.
I find open / altered tuning better for ornamentation as there are open strings available for more variability in the ornamentation and for more resonances.
Mark
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jun 4, 2016 9:22:39 GMT
................................ I find open / altered tuning better for ornamentation as there are open strings available for more variability in the ornamentation and for more resonances. Mark Q So how do whistle players do it? A With their tongues. Keith
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Post by andyhowell on Jun 4, 2016 10:36:39 GMT
Ornamentation is one of those odd things isn't it? Sometimes it can something to a piece but sometimes it detracts from the enjoyment. I quite often find with my own pieces that they don't sound as good when recorded as they do when I'm just playing them. In these cases things inevitably improve when I strip the arrangement back.
Martin Simpson is a interesting case in point. A long time ago he gave me the best advice I have ever had which was to 'play less notes' and you can see this philosophy work in much of his better stuff. However, I saw him play his first gig this year and he was far too intricate, probably something to do with getting over rustiness and an adrenalin rush. There was far too much ornamentation here and I thought this was probably the least interesting gig I have seen him do for years!
Ornamentation needs to sound natural and needs to flow into the general timbre of the piece. All too often it is clunky and annoying to me!
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jun 4, 2016 11:11:44 GMT
..................A long time ago he gave me the best advice I have ever had which was to 'play less notes' ............................ That was rubbish advice. He should have said play fewer notes. Other than that, excellent post! We guitar players need to concentrate primarily on playing the music, not playing the guitar . Obviously we need to learn some technique etc, but that's often where we get stuck in a guitaristic rut. But the only way to play the music is, having learned the technique, by feeling the music. Something of a lifetime's work I think. Keith
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Jun 4, 2016 11:16:48 GMT
This is an example of guitar ornamentation technique :
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Post by ocarolan on Jun 4, 2016 11:19:06 GMT
... try getting that ornamentation on a whistle eh?!
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Post by andyhowell on Jun 4, 2016 21:51:45 GMT
What a shit guitar ...
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Post by stanellison on Jun 7, 2016 23:51:01 GMT
The simplest ornamentation is to play the scale note above the melody note and quickly pull off to the actual note. Or, play the note below and hammer on to the melody note. The trick is to play the note slightly ahead of time and complete the hammer on or pull off on the beat or half beat.
A longer decoration, used on sustained notes involves the melody note, hammer on to the note above, pull off to the original note and slide down to the note below. (All these notes are scale notes, not accidentals). This might be followed by the original note played on the beat.
You can get different effects by starting or ending these embellishments on a beat or half beat and by varying the speed of execution.
Incidentally it's my personal belief that the word 'Celtic' used for the music of the British Isles is a historically inaccurate conceit. The origin of the music is almost certainly Norse. Before 800 AD the Romans obliterated Celtic culture and after that the Vikings over-ran all the bits that the Romans missed. A study of development of instrument technology might well suggest that before the 19th century most instruments couldn't actually play the music that is played today.
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Post by andyhowell on Jun 8, 2016 7:22:28 GMT
Incidentally it's my personal belief that the word 'Celtic' used for the music of the British Isles is a historically inaccurate conceit. The origin of the music is almost certainly Norse. Before 800 AD the Romans obliterated Celtic culture and after that the Vikings over-ran all the bits that the Romans missed. A study of development of instrument technology might well suggest that before the 19th century most instruments couldn't actually play the music that is played today. I'd be certain of that Stan! The whole Celtic 'industry' is a reasonably recent creation. And, of course, modal scales and tunings are not unique to the celts!
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maninashed
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Post by maninashed on Jun 15, 2016 7:17:55 GMT
Thanks for your replies!
I do need to listen more. I tend to listen to tab book CD or online midi to find tunes I like and then just them. Listening to how others play them and the techniques they use must give an insight into ornamentation.
The link to the DADGAD site is very useful in explaining techniques. I need to start experimenting and chucking a few in to see what happens.
Then again, I might just get a guitar like that. Then everyone would just look at the guitar and not care what I play!
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