missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Jun 12, 2016 18:48:08 GMT
It often takes me such a long time to be able to play something new that, by the time I'm half way there, I've lost interest in it. The following, posted by vikingblues got me thinking about it again. Dr Victoria Williamson had a lesson on music and memory in the Sheffield University Song writing course I did recently and said about any particular recording of music "as you hear it more and more, what your brain starts to do is channel in on particular aspects of the sound. It starts to be able to focus on particular auditory streams and pay attention to them. And over time, you break down the sound into its component parts and then the re-establishment of it as a gestalt at the end of that process has created a strong and durable memory". The lesson went on to say that the same process also strengthens emotional connection with the particular music as performed in the recording. Read more: acousticsoundboard.co.uk/thread/6279/music-musicians-inspired-me#ixzz4BOK7ZrAwWhether or not this is how musical memories are formed, I do find that the bit where I don't fully understand what I'm hearing is very enjoyable, or perhaps it's the process of making sense of it that is enjoyable. Once I know it well enough to have formed a strong memory, I start to lose interest. Is this a fancy way of saying that I like the novelty of an unfamiliar piece? It reminds me of when I went with my dad (who was very artistic in lots of ways) to an art gallery and he asked me what I liked best. I said I preferred the pre-Raphaelites because of the bright colours. He said, "That's the reason a chimpanzee would like them." How do you retain your interest in a piece while you're learning it? Is it by learning it a lot more quickly than I normally do?
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leitrimnick
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Post by leitrimnick on Jun 12, 2016 19:43:19 GMT
Just a thought. Break it down into two different stages:-
1: Learn to finger the piece. i.e. play it through without physical mistakes (bum notes, bad but not incorrect fretting etc) 2: Learn to play the piece. Dynamic changes, tempo changes etc which put your own voice into whatever you're playing.
You cannot get to stage 2 without completing stage 1 and thereby rewarding yourself. That should give you a break from the boredom as you then start to think about stage 2. When you have the second stage completed you have the reward of a new piece in your repertoire which you can take out and admire or even polish any time you wish. Then you can start all over again with a new piece.
If you start really to hate something in the middle then, like a book, there's no law which says you have to finish it.
Hope this makes some sense.
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Post by vikingblues on Jun 13, 2016 7:51:14 GMT
Your post rang some bells with me Alison. I have to admit I find learning other peoples music to be a fairly negative experience as a whole. But if I do have a go, once I have some sort of handle on it and can have a reasonable stab at it, I do often lose interest and want to move onto something else. I'm a bit butterfly like in my learning. But I don't think it's because I've formed a strong memory of it - more that it is either just a pale imitation of the real thing or it isn't "me" in its style and musical ideas. If I can make it "mine" in some way I will work much longer and harder at the learning process. If I can't make it "mine" I feel that there's so much music out there there must be another piece somewhere that will suit me better and will give me more musical enjoyment. I have noticed that the two guitar teachers that I have "connected" best with in my life both have little in the way of note for note copying in their teaching methods and have concentrated on bringing the players own quirks and musical idiosyncrasies to the music. Much more satisfying for a lazy sod like me. leitrimnick - your post put me in mind of the classical guitar lessons I took. At least 95% stage 1 and at most 5% stage 2. Very dispiriting and it would have been so much better with a more even spread between the two. Your idea of a fuller stage 2 gets my vote. Mark
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Jun 13, 2016 9:38:58 GMT
Thanks for the replies. leitrimnick I think you've got something there. Last time I attempted a really long piece, the first stage just took too long that my heart wasn't in it by the time I got to stage two. Maybe the answer is to stick to shorter pieces. vikingblues it sounds as though your experience with classical lessons was similar to mine. I was happy with the lessons at the time because I could see technical progress being made, but a lot of it was a memory exercise. Too much memorizing and no time for expression. And as my sight reading has improved I can't even memorize like I used to, which makes it take even longer to get my fingers round a piece. So maybe the second part of the answer is to discard the music as soon as possible.
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leitrimnick
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Post by leitrimnick on Jun 13, 2016 11:55:41 GMT
Just a bit of context. Personally, I'm a musical illiterate who's never had a formal guitar lesson in his life. This means you rely on memory (and these days a camcorder). I have never spent much time learning pieces (as by rote) but worked the odd tune out by ear and tried to do something with it which went beyond a straight rendition of the original. So in some ways, the learn/get bored with process is foreign to me. My thoughts above were adapted from my own basic process which is 'write' the piece, learn to finger it, learn to play it. The last element is always the longest as pieces sometimes change over the years.
My one real experience of trying to learn a piece was that of John Fahey's 'Funeral Song For Mississippi John Hurt'. I now have a version of the tune and I reckon it only took me about twenty years.
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Post by creamburmese on Jun 14, 2016 23:31:40 GMT
I know exactly what you mean Alison. Most of the pieces I play I heard somewhere and I really wanted to play them. I do find even with them sometimes my enthusiasm kind of flags after the novelty wears off and while the hard work of getting it to sound like music is still in its infancy. If the piece is really too difficult for me, this is the stage I will give up because progress is too slow and there seems little prospect of getting it to sound decent. I didnt realise this at the time but last time this happened mu teacher came up with a choice of easy pieces I could conquer in a couple of weeks thus rekindling the enthusiasm. However I will say once I get over the hump and can recreate the music (albeit imperfectly) then I really enjoy playing it and in my limited guitar career I havent yet got tired of those pieces However if I am forced to do what my temporary guitar teacher wants (learn to play the hands separately) then that might be a different story...
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Post by seren on Jun 15, 2016 9:13:33 GMT
Interesting thread as I, too, suffer from the same dread affliction. Having lots of songs on the go is frustrating as you never master any (unless you are a professional musician with 9 hours a day to spare).
I guess there is a main motivating force that is at play, here. Most of us are doing it for fun and part of the process of learning a song to polished perfection is The Pain Barrier of Boredom. When something becomes 'unfun', we give up.
It does help to have some goal at the end, for example, recording it for others to hear, or performing the piece at an Open Mic...
As I don't have a vent for either at the moment, the enjoyment is gleaned through working through guitar instrumentals as if I was reading a book. If there are any that take my fancy, I might go back and perfect my interpretation of them.
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Post by NikGnashers on Nov 20, 2016 9:12:24 GMT
Interesting thread, I have only been back playing for a year. When I played for 12 years previously, I seemed to learn to 'half play' 100's of songs, but never really stick with any one song long enough to master playing it. I stopped playing for 10 years and took it up again a year ago. This time I had a definite idea of what I wanted to play. I have only tried learning about 6 new songs in the past year, but these are songs I really love, and am determined to master, and I think this has helped me to overcome the 'familiarity breeds boredom' thing. I have concluded that I may never be able to play these exactly as my 'heroes' do, so I have set my own standard of satisfaction and level to achieve, and if I am happy with it, that is the only thing that matters.
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Nov 20, 2016 15:53:07 GMT
tried learning about 6 new songs in the past year, but these are songs I really love, and am determined to master, and I think this has helped me to overcome the 'familiarity breeds boredom' thing. I'm inclined to agree with you, NIk. In the time since I started this thread I've had the pleasure of finally seeing an improvement in a tune that I really like. For some reason I found one of the techniques really difficult, but was able to keep motivated because I like it so much. It has taken 12 months to see this improvement, but it's been worth it.
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007
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Post by 007 on Nov 20, 2016 18:22:30 GMT
I used to experience what a lot of people in this thread did until I, very recently, realised that this is no different an experience to that of doing homework/prep for school\college/work whatever. There is stuff you like, you have to do and stuff you don't like that you have to do so try and make it work.
So I decided to break down my practice (homework) into what I think of as bite sized pieces. I might therefore decide to practice for an hour that day. A week in advance I will set myself stuff to learn just how long I spend is flexible but I try and do half an hour a day minimum
So my Practice sheet will look like this
Monday Song A 10 minutes Song B 10 minutes Theory, scales whatever 10 mins
Tuesday Song C 10 minutes Song D 10 Minutes Theory 10 minutes
Wed Song A 10 mins Song B 10 mins General playing
Thursday C 10 mins D 10 mins Trying new songs 10 mins
Friday Revisiting songs I play regularly just to keep them polished 30 mins
Sat 15 Minutes Barre chords 15 learning a new song for next week
You can make this as flexible as you like and build in things you don't like that you feel you have to do to keep a balance, think of these as core subjects that have to be done.
Nothing is wrong it is up to you how much or little you do
If anyone would like me to email them a PDF of my Practice sheet send me a PM
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Nov 22, 2016 20:45:59 GMT
Sounds like a good idea to have a structure. It's my dream to have a routine, but it's not going to be possible until I retire.
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Post by creamburmese on Dec 5, 2016 22:04:22 GMT
I think the central question here is whether you really really want to play the piece - I never get bored with them - each new bit that emerges as music is its own reward. On the other hand for pieces that I don't really care about but I have to do because they are 'good for me' (that currently includes the Bach cello Bourree in Em and some boring Sor stuff) I get through that by allocating a certain amount of time to work on specific bits each day. When the timer goes off, I'm done for the day and can move on to something else. The secret to my mind is having a good balance between what I would call 'technical' pieces that might possibly just advance my playing ability, and 'fun' pieces that I want to add to my repertoire. , I have been pondering on this recently because my guitar playing was getting to be less fun - so I wrote about it (where else?) on my blog adultguitarjourney.blogspot.com
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Post by andyhowell on Dec 10, 2016 10:37:46 GMT
Intersting and some complex answers!
I want to rant about learning through rote or by following tabs precisely. For me it is all about the flow of the music. A technically simple piece played with confidence and real heart is always better IMHO.
Once you've freed yourself from the tyranny of the tab things get more interesting. You hear tunes that you think might be good. And you create your own arrangements or compose your own tunes.
Of course, I recognise that this is really not applicable in the classical field. I suppose the key here is more psychological than anything else. You have to be happy with the pursuit of something better and that's an attitude of mind or philosophy.
But whether you are playing classical or something else the best test is always the same. If someone hears you play and says 'that's nice', well is there anything better than that?
When things get too frustrating put the piece down and go play something else. There is no point beating yourself up.
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Post by vikingblues on Dec 11, 2016 11:53:58 GMT
And as my sight reading has improved I can't even memorize like I used to. I hope you're right with that thought! It would suit my fragile ego better to think that that has happened to me, rather than my thinking my memory is being shockingly bad! I learned sight reading to a decent standard some 40 years or so ago, so it's difficult to remember if I was better at memorising before then. I like to just try and get gradually better at relatively simple music now and have several pieces on the go at once, so that helps to take away the danger of losing interest during the long learning process of concentrating on just one thing that's also tricky to learn. Mark
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Dec 12, 2016 16:31:49 GMT
Once you've freed yourself from the tyranny of the tab things get more interesting. You hear tunes that you think might be good. And you create your own arrangements or compose your own tunes. That would be my ultimate goal, how ever distant it may seem at the moment. But, rather than achieving this by having to work hard at boring things like theory, keys and scales, I'm hoping it will one day come naturally. I'm still mainly interested in flamenco, and flamenco players seem to learn it in the same way as children absorb language. It may be too late for that, but I do notice small gains in my musical freedom. Just from lots of listening, I find I often know what's going on in the music, where previously I would have had no idea. And if I'm learning a piece from tab, I find I can make small alterations and adaptations which would have been unthinkable two years ago. It's a start!
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