ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Feb 21, 2017 18:32:17 GMT
Yup, got it Riverman - I'll have a listen now! K
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Feb 21, 2017 18:47:52 GMT
I'd say those noises were pretty minimal Richard.
The most obvious(at around 2-3 sec and 5-6 sec, and they weren't that obvious!) came from definite position shifts and sound like minimal string squeak from LH fingertips. I don't mind a bit of that here and there actually, and that particular example I'd hear as atmosphere not as annoying intrusion.
A little Fast Fret (or similar) on the strings (and fingertips) might just make this sort of thing even less audible. I'd be v happy if I kept my string squeak to this sort of level.
This kind of noise can certainly appear more annoying when listening critically on headphones, whereas when listening on a sound system from a few feet away it can seem more a part of the overall sound, more a part of the characteristics of a guitar being played, and can seem less intrusive altogether.
Try listening to it again after a few days - it's easy to get really bogged down in the minutiae when analysing brand new recordings.
Really looking forward to hearing the finished CD!
Keith
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Post by vikingblues on Feb 21, 2017 19:40:48 GMT
The wonderful world of recordings Richard! You can get great results but when you;re trying to find a combination and method that works for you there's so many damn variables it can be more than a tad confusing and extremely frustrating. At 15" distance it doesn't seem you're getting extraneous noises from the microphones being too close. Both your microphones are cardioid pattern I think, so they're pretty directional and that should reduce any problems of noises unless those noises are in the fairly narrow area that the cardioid focuses on. Omni pattern is great for more natural and less clinical sounds, but .... oh boy .... can they pick up so many sounds from elsewhere! It may be your microphones are what you call "budget" level but, given condensers being available from around £40 and upwards, it should be that these mics are easily good enough quality for what you are doing. It makes sense that you tried a combination with the less sensitive microphone away from where you feel the noises are based. Are you recording the two microphones onto two separate tracks on your recording equipment? If so can you still hear the noises if the neck/body join microphone track is muted? I recall when I first started doing a lot of recording with sensitive good quality microphones I did have to adjust some of my habits to stop noise irritations .... in particular with owning mostly satin finish guitars I had problems with noise from some of my clothes rubbing on the guitar that were picked up in recordings. A real instance of that jumper is too loud! I know some people use various types of wax / polish to avoid this. A couple of thoughts. (1) With using two microphones have you tried changing how much of each microphones sound is in the mix - if the noises are from the microphone aimed at the body / neck then a 60 :40 split in level in favour of the other microphone might help the bury the noises more while (maybe) not affecting the tone too seriously. (2) It might be worth trying to change the microphone position so that it is aimed at, or is aimed from, slightly above or below the actual neck? Anyway, I was listening to your sound file and it doesn't seem to me that the noises are too intrusive. I suspect if you hadn't mentioned them I'd not have been aware of them. But if you have a piece of music where there are a lot of position shifts and you are playing in quite a stacatto style I suspect it's very difficult to eliminate such noises completely. I wish I could have just pointed out some magic solution! But as the near 500 pages of the Sound on Sound book I have on Recording (by Mike Senior) would suggest, it's quite a complex subject! Mark
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Feb 21, 2017 20:39:32 GMT
Flippin eck!! I do so much seem to be saying this on every thread I reply on. So here it is - I agree with Keith Seriously, I couldn't hear much at all to speak of. Having said that as you know I'm no recording expert but I do listen to guitar music. I mean I listen to it all the time and I have heard worse on a Julian Lage track. I think when you are recording your ears go super sensitive and hear absolutely everything. I think background noises/clicks etc. becomes very apparent when you play a slow piece with lots of dynamics where you let some notes decay to almost nothing then move your hand and click/squeaks are hard to mask. Perhaps you could ask your mixing mastering man what his thoughts are? Cheers Phil
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Feb 21, 2017 21:55:10 GMT
Thanks ocarolan , vikingblues and Phil Taylor for taking the time to listen I suspect this is a bit like taking your car to the garage because it's making funny noises, but the mechanic can't hear them! Maybe the short snippet I provided wasn't truly representative of the irritation factor - I've just listened to three different takes, writing notes, and across the three versions heard eight, ten and five points at which these noises make me feel that the track's unusable. I know, of course, that I'm being super critical, but it's a shortish song (just over three and a half minutes) and it's just so tempting to think "do it again, it might be perfect next time". It'll never be perfect, of course... Keith - wise words, I'm sure. I might pick some Fast Fret up, thanks for the suggestion - haven't used the stuff in years! Mark - yes, I think you're right about the mic patterns. Just as well, because external noise could be a bit of a problem here otherwise. I record some way away from, but facing the window so that the mics point away from it. It's only when a fire engine or ambulance goes screaming up the hill about a quarter of a mile behind the house that I have to stop and wait awhile. Of course that usually happens just as I'm getting to the end of what I'm thinking is a good take! Yes, the mics are going to separate tracks and in most cases the noise is slightly worse at the neck/body join end, but it's evident on both tracks. I'm not doing any mixing at the moment - the current balance just reflects the gain on each channel. I know this can be changed later in the mix. One thing that's bothering me slightly is that, when I had the NT1a at the neck/body position and the M3 behind the bridge, I much preferred the sound of the former. Now I've switched them I prefer the M3...obviously I just prefer the sound from the neck/body join. I'm hoping that my friend who'll do the mixing will be able to minimise the sound effects whilst retaining the elements of the sound that I really like. I'll try some further tweaks to the M3 positioning though - thanks for the suggestion. Phil - there are worse ways of ingratiating yourself with the management than consistently agreeing with a moderator... I think you've just provided the first review of my new album: "I have heard worse on a Julian Lage track"! I'll definitely quote you on that My mixing friend, sadly, has a day job which takes him to London for most of the week, so I won't know what he thinks until the weekend at the earliest. Thanks again chaps, really appreciate the input and reassurance. Onward and upward!
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Post by lavaman on Feb 21, 2017 22:51:04 GMT
Richard
Yes, there's a tiny bit of noise as you slide up or down the neck. I wouldn't worry about it. It's part of guitar playing. A bit like hearing a singer's breath before the vocal.
The overall sound is a little muddy to my ears. You might want to try recording in a bigger room or put some plywood on the floor
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Feb 21, 2017 23:01:04 GMT
Richard Yes, there's a tiny bit of noise as you slide up or down the neck. I wouldn't worry about it. It's part of guitar playing. A bit like hearing a singer's breath before the vocal. The overall sound is a little muddy to my ears. You might want to try recording in a bigger room or put some plywood on the floor Thanks Iain. Where's the key place for the wood - between my seat and the mic stands? For me, the neck/body join mic is bright and crisp, the behind-the-bridge one much more middle-y. This is irrespective of which mic is in which position. Is that what you'd expect?
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Post by lavaman on Feb 21, 2017 23:16:44 GMT
Yes, I'd put the wood on the floor between you and the mics. That should produce a brighter sound. If you can record in a bigger room try that. Also, try moving the mics a little further away, say 9" to 12" or so. It's all about experimenting to get a sound you like.
cheers Iain
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andrewjw
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Post by andrewjw on Feb 21, 2017 23:20:29 GMT
I've just had a listen on phones and agree that the "noise" is pretty unobtrusive...the problem is that ( if you are anything like me ) now you are aware of it it will drive you mad until you get rid of it unless you are certain it is playing noise and not electrical interference. Playing "noise" is fact of life and is really hard to get rid of without losing the dynamics of a performance...within reason I think it can add ambience and character to a piece. I wasn't at all sure that the extraneous sounds I could hear on your recording were playing noise...although it is hard to tell from such a short clip. I had a similar sounding although intermittent problem a couple of years ago...sometimes it would be there and sometimes not....almost worse!! The only electrical item that had changed in the house was a new modem etc that came with us changing to BT Infinity....lo and behold when I switched the modem/router off the noise disappeared . Obviously you'll be able to hear electrical interference on a recording whether you are playing or not...it may not be evident until you actually start recording though...that was my experience...at "rest" the system was completely silent. Welcome to the fun world of home recording!
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Feb 21, 2017 23:33:59 GMT
lavaman - thanks Iain. I think I'm stuck with the room unfortunately, but I'll try the wood idea. I already have the mics about 12 - 15" away. andrewjw - I'm sure (I think!) that it's a physical noise from the playing process rather than any sort of interference. What I am finding though is that, after I've been recording for a while, the bar/time counter in the DAW (Cubasis) becomes audible on the track The only solution seems to be to switch it off for a while and let it cool down. But sometimes I just have to abandon the session. Mind you I'm probably past it by the time that happens anyway!
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Post by walkingdecay on Feb 22, 2017 1:47:01 GMT
It should be said that my hearing isn't quite as good as it used to be, which may be an explanation if they're in the highest range, but I genuinely could not hear any extraneous noises.
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Post by lavaman on Feb 22, 2017 7:34:31 GMT
lavaman - thanks Iain. I think I'm stuck with the room unfortunately, but I'll try the wood idea. I already have the mics about 12 - 15" away. sorry, I didn't explain very well - I meant 9 to 12" further away than where you have them now.
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Post by francis on Feb 22, 2017 7:50:59 GMT
Is it not possible to record 'silence' or background noise for 2-3 mins and subtract that from the recording after to remove modem, lighting or other factors?
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Post by scripsit on Feb 22, 2017 8:41:38 GMT
Is it not possible to record 'silence' or background noise for 2-3 mins and subtract that from the recording after to remove modem, lighting or other factors? Yep, that's how Izotope RX works, and it works well for short artifacts, like a door slamming in the distance. I've found it removes more than the offending audio if you try to adjust for a persistent background noise, like microphone floor noise or air conditioner hum, and the recording can then sound very strange indeed, even if you 'train' the program with a few seconds of what passes for silence in your room. I've never found it successful at removing string scrape, probably because the range of frequencies in a scrape is so wide (and high). It's better at lower frequencies, in my experience, so could help with the rumble of trucks and traffic. It could also be that I don't know how to use it properly. I usually give up and try another take. Kym
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Feb 22, 2017 9:17:08 GMT
It could also be that I don't know how to use it properly. I usually give up and try another take. You've just summed up my last few days...
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