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Post by jackorion on Jun 6, 2018 7:10:37 GMT
Hey,
I've had K&K pickups installed in guitars in the past with mixed results - in my old MArtin X series it sounded really good, in my Martin OM28v it was boomy and always on the verge of feedback (I had one installed twice in that guitar and it was the same the second time as well) and in my Fylde Alexander it never got gigged because the pickup was picking up some weird internal rattle that eventually led me to have the guitar refretted by Roger and then I sold it...
But I wanted to put a pickup in my new Collings OM2h T which has a proper 'through' saddle - so couldn't install my preferred LR Baggs Anthem system.
I figured I'd only be playing the new guitar at small gigs, and I tend to play more gigs now where the sound is actually well looked after, plus i have my Orchid Preamp for controlling the sound onstage and I didn't want to go with a soundhole pickup so I decided to take the plunge and order the K&K Pure Mini and give it one last shot...
So I've just got my OM2h T back from the repair shop with it's new K&K Pure Mini installed...
Absolutely no problems with the install, plenty of space on the bridge plate and no bracing issues.
I've plugged it into my AER at home and, for the moment, I'm happy - it sounds very pleasant, no quack, no woofiness, with a good balance across the strings.
I managed to get my AER up to small gig levels for a few moments and it sounded fine - there's maybe a little something going on in the upper mids area that didn't sound fantastic, but I've often felt the AER can sound a bit 'honky' when played at home, but that 'honk' helps with cutting through live without excessive volume.
Although it doesn't sound 'exactly like my guitar' I feel that it does approximate the characteristics of the guitar quite well - the bass is clear without being too dominant, and it's got some of that 'ringy-ness' in the mids and trebles that characterise the Collings sound to my ear.
I also ran it through the Orchid and that seemed to give a fuller and cleaner sound - perhaps that is the much discussed impedance issue being corrected? My Orchid is my preamp for gigs so I'm glad that it at least has the correct impedance and that the EQ controls seemed to work in my normal settings (although, again, there was a little upper mids honky-ness going on that I couldn't dial out).
I compared it to my two Lr Baggs Anthem Sl equipped guitars - the Anthem SL is definitely more 'toppy' and actually sounded a little harsh coming straight from the k&k, particularly in my OM2h ss vn (but it's always been quite bright in that guitar anyway, maybe I should try a k&k in that as well?).
In my Martin the Anthem SL works well as it seems to get across the slightly darker low mids without getting muddy, and I think it did sound a bit more powerful than the k&k in the Traditional - my Martin always gets compliments on its plugged in tone and I don't think that will change!
I have a couple of gigs at the weekend so I'm going to take the OM2h T along and see how the K&K performs live but, based on the sound through the AER at home, so far it's a good match.
I thought perhaps I might record a few demos of the mic'd guitar vs the pickup if anyone is interested? I could do it for my Anthem equipped guitars as well...
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Wild Violet
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My main instrument is: Symonds OM-14
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Post by Wild Violet on Jun 6, 2018 8:55:47 GMT
definitely interested in a comparison soundclip!
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Post by jackorion on Jun 6, 2018 9:05:54 GMT
definitely interested in a comparison soundclip! Just tried to do a quick one but my neighbours are having a patio put down in their garden, which means I've had three weeks or drilling, digging, cutting slabs, etc etc going on next door... They normally don't start till 10 but decided to get going at 9.30 this morning... Listening to what I got down though I will say this - the direct recorded sound of the K&K is pretty poor without any EQ... It's actually a really awful way to compare pickups as it sounds so much better through the AER in the room!
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Post by andyhowell on Jun 6, 2018 9:26:53 GMT
I always run my guitar signal through a preamp before running into the AER. It certainly does something!
I've tried on a number of occasions to buy an Orchid! Despite the website saying they are always in stock — they aren't! They always tell me they will get in touch when they are in stock but they never do! I'd love to have tried one but then I am pretty happy with my Headway preamp.
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Post by jackorion on Jun 6, 2018 13:14:55 GMT
I always run my guitar signal through a preamp before running into the AER. It certainly does something! I've tried on a number of occasions to buy an Orchid! Despite the website saying they are always in stock — they aren't! They always tell me they will get in touch when they are in stock but they never do! I'd love to have tried one but then I am pretty happy with my Headway preamp. Weird, I emailed him direct and had one a couple of days later... To be fair John is known to be a little unreliable with timings but if you keep hassling him he normally delivers eventually!
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Post by andyhowell on Jun 7, 2018 9:07:26 GMT
It is strange. Three times now he has said he will give me a shout when he has them in. I began to wonder if he had something against those of us North of the Mendips :-)
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Post by jackorion on Jun 8, 2018 8:59:47 GMT
It is strange. Three times now he has said he will give me a shout when he has them in. I began to wonder if he had something against those of us North of the Mendips :-) Ha! Never mind all the way up there mate, once you get past Taunton it's basically 'the north' or 'London' depending on whether you stay on the M5 or join the A303...
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Post by jackorion on Jun 10, 2018 9:03:23 GMT
So I took the new guitar out to two gigs yesterday - both the sort of gigs that would have had me worried about the K&K in the past as they were festival shows with a quick turnover and almost no soundcheck.
The first was in a marquee with a small PA - the sound was pretty good but I did get a bit of feedback from the monitor when, halfway through my first song, the sound man decided to turn the monitor up by about 75%!! I ended up finishing that song by standing sideways to the monitor and shielding the guitar with my body but, once I'd managed to convey what needed to change, I think the guitar sounded fine out front. I did swap to my Martin for a couple of songs in standard tuning and I think it did sound better but it wasn't night and day.
The second gig I thought would be much better - seated audience at a well organised festival with a proper sound person and a really good PA. Unfortunately there was something about where I was standing and the sound of the room that meant it sounded very harsh to me on stage, and my vocal mic was feeding back a fair amount. There were a couple of times where I looked over at the soundman whilst the mic was screeching and he was chatting to a mate... In the end I had to say over the PA 'my vocal mic is feeding back and I can't talk to the audience or sing if it doesn't stop so could you please make it stop?' and he seemed to wake up and do something about it (although it was still pretty 'on the edge' for the rest of the gig). anyway, no feedback from the guitar this time and, despite what I thought from the onstage sound, my partner (who has heard my other guitar lots of times and now points out other people's bad guitar sounds to me at gigs!) said it sounded good out front, but it was too quiet (which is weird given the feedback I was getting onstage which I think was coming from the house rather than the monitor).
Anyway, not the most successful first couple of gigs for the k&k but it was ok - I wouldn't say I was blown away by the sound on either occasion but, apart from the technical issues, there was nothing that put me off too much... I had my Martin with me and I was tempted just to go with that during the second gig but I stuck with the Collings and I'm glad it's been christened at a gig now.
To be honest I think I'll try it at a few more gigs and hope that the sound people at those gigs are a bit more on it and maybe consider some extra eq options for the k&k guitar... I have a Venue DI on loan for review at the moment so maybe I'll try that at a few gigs...
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Post by jackorion on Jun 14, 2018 7:30:37 GMT
So I’ve been thinking about my K&K experience at the weekend - the Collings sounded okay but I felt there was some frequencies I’d have liked to been able to dial out and my Orchid wasn’t quite getting them - I think the Orchids mid control is around the 800 mark, but I feel like there was some low mids and some high mids that it wasn’t catching unless I turned it completely down and then there was still some other stuff that could sound better.
I also felt the K&K sounded a bit ‘dry’ compared to my Anthem SL so this got me thinking about bringing the Bluesky back into the mix and also about how I could get that extra EQ for the K&K.
I’m going to wait until I’ve used the K&K for a few more gigs, but most of my gigs coming up will probably be with just my Martin as they’re festival gigs with even less turnover and I’m staying for the weekend in my campervan at a few of them so I don’t have space to two guitars (not unless my girlfriend sleeps in the roof!)
So I have a few trains of thought currently - one is just add a Boss GE-7 to my board, stick the Orchid DI back on the board (at the moment I clamp it to the microphone stand) and set it so that I have my normal ‘slightly scooped mids’ setting for the Anthem on the Orchid and then just kick in the GE7 for the K&K - having recorded the K&K direct to Logic and using the graphic EQ set to the same frequencies as the GE-7 I discovered that the frequencies that work are a cut at 400, 800 and 1.6 and a slight boost at 3.2 with a little volume boost to bring it back to pre-eq levels - this seems to give me a much better sound through my headphones although I haven’t tried it through an amp.
The other option is the Empress Para EQ - significantly more expensive than the GE-7 but I don’t mind spending the extra if it’s worth it - again, by setting up a ‘dummy’ three band parametric eq in logic and aping the ParaEQ settings I found a big improvement in the tone,
My issue with this way of going is that I then end up with EQ going into EQ on my board, and that seems a bit off somehow, so my second thought was getting two GE7s (or even two ParaEqs), one for the Anthem and one for the K&K and then just buying a radial stage bug or something similar to send the signal to the desk - this would give me two different settings for my two guitars and give me a nice compact pedalboard that would be as easy to setup as my current rig (apart from having to find a power plug onstage!)
What I want to be able to do is present two different EQ settings to the house PA without needing two separate lines on the desk - perhaps at some point this will be possible but, at the moment, I’m not in a position to be requesting more complicated setups as I’m often playing quick support sets - and be able to switch between them quickly whilst also muting the signal.
I need to be able to carry two guitars and the rest of my rig in one journey and be setup within 10 minutes and to be able to present to the house a fair representation of the sound I want out front that they can then tweak for the room if needs be but I also need to be able to deal with problem frequencies if there isn’t a competent sound person available.
Anyway, this has become a bit of a ramble but I’d be interested in having a discussion and getting peoples opinions and ideas..
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Post by scorpiodog on Jun 14, 2018 8:39:20 GMT
I don’t want to derail the thread, but one item in your post of 10 June really resonated with me. What is it with sound engineers?
Many of them don’t seem to realise that their job is to monitor and control the sound constantly. They seem too ready to set the controls at the beginning and then do anything they like until the set ends. Unless they’re concentrating and getting great sound out front, what’s the point of having one?
I don’t often have the privilege of using a sound engineer (probably only 20 times in my life), but in that short experience, I can think of only about 5 occasions when I’ve felt they were really worth their pay. I did a short gig at a festival on Saturday where the sound engineer set me up and then disappeared! He returned about 5 minutes before I finished. Several people suggested that the sound was ill balanced. There was no feedback, but apparently the vocals could hardly be heard.
I can forgive a problem with the monitor as long as the engineer doesn’t alter the settings after the sound check (he can’t hear it properly to control it and it’s the performer’s responsibility to make sure it’s ok for him/her) but there is really no excuse for getting the audience mix wrong.
Sorry this is a bit off the topic, Ben. Just getting it off my chest.
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Post by ocarolan on Jun 14, 2018 9:37:31 GMT
Ben, I suspect the Boss eq pedal will be a simple and effective way to go provided you don't need too much cut. I have used it for a extra bands of mid cut (v similar to your discovered settings!)on my K&K equipped octave mandolin as it remains a bit honky whether through Orchid, K&K preamp or PADI alone.
But, often playing through my own mixer anyway I just cut more mids around 1k there in addition to the Orchid mid cut at 9 o'clock - as I believe I did for my O25 when opening for you in Stowey.
Keith
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Post by jackorion on Jun 14, 2018 9:46:54 GMT
I don’t want to derail the thread, but one item in your post of 10 June really resonated with me. What is it with sound engineers? Many of them don’t seem to realise that their job is to monitor and control the sound constantly. They seem too ready to set the controls at the beginning and then do anything they like until the set ends. Unless they’re concentrating and getting great sound out front, what’s the point of having one? I don’t often have the privilege of using a sound engineer (probably only 20 times in my life), but in that short experience, I can think of only about 5 occasions when I’ve felt they were really worth their pay. I did a short gig at a festival on Saturday where the sound engineer set me up and then disappeared! He returned about 5 minutes before I finished. Several people suggested that the sound was ill balanced. There was no feedback, but apparently the vocals could hardly be heard. I can forgive a problem with the monitor as long as the engineer doesn’t alter the settings after the sound check (he can’t hear it properly to control it and it’s the performer’s responsibility to make sure it’s ok for him/her) but there is really no excuse for getting the audience mix wrong. Sorry this is a bit off the topic, Ben. Just getting it off my chest. It's alright - I'm hoping to hold off on having to buy more gear and find that other sound engineers will be more on the ball and I'll get a better sound at my next few gigs! I think some engineers have a 'one size fits all' approach to mixing which sometimes means you're okay if you fit into the criteria that they've set up for (which, to my ear, seems to be a massive bassy guitar sound, loads of reverb on the vocals, and the assumption that you'll shout at a SM58 from as close as possible) instead of making changes to suit the performer's style and performance. And of course, often there's 'something wrong with your guitar' when it's feeding back which has nothing to do with the too loud subs on stage or the fact they haven't engaged the high-pass on the channel! I've had engineers ask me to 'play harder' before or say 'can't you use a pick?' when they decide that my fingerpicking is too quiet, but you have to politely say no and suggest some changes without offending them! Having said that I've also had some experiences where I've actually doubted that the monitor is working because the onstage sound has been so good I felt like I was playing unplugged - those times really helped me perform to my best ability and it makes such a big difference. There is sometimes a 'grin and bear it' attitude you have to adopt to playing live where the only thing that gets you through is the knowledge that a good performance will hopefully defeat any bad sound - it's part of the reason I often perform my last song completely unplugged if it's appropriate as it means I know I have something to look forward to at the end of the gig and I know the audience will remember it and forget the squealing feedback during the third song!
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Post by jackorion on Jun 14, 2018 11:04:52 GMT
Ben, I suspect the Boss eq pedal will be a simple and effective way to go provided you don't need too much cut. I have used it for a extra bands of mid cut (v similar to your discovered settings!)on my K&K equipped octave mandolin as it remains a bit honky whether through Orchid, K&K preamp or PADI alone. But, often playing through my own mixer anyway I just cut more mids around 1k there in addition to the Orchid mid cut at 9 o'clock - as I believe I did for my O25 when opening for you in Stowey. Keith That's encouraging Keith - just been doing some extra testing at home - re-recorded some direct samples of the K&K and Anthem into Logic and then I've routed them out into the two channels of my AER, one just straight in, and then one via the Orchid. This means I can play back the tracks and switch between them trying different EQs out - I actually can get the K&K sounding good with the Orchid if I completely wipe out the mids, and boost a small amount of bass and treble. It also sounds better with the 'simulated' Boss GE-7 inline or with the 'simulated' ParaEQ - again I'm cutting at 400, 800 and 1K. I have a last minute gig tonight where I'll be plugging into an AER Domino so I'm tempted to see if I can borrow a GE-7 from somewhere and take it along to try in a real life situation...
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Post by ocarolan on Jun 14, 2018 11:14:29 GMT
...interestingly, the K&K preamps that I use have the mid cut at 1.5 with what they call an extended bandwidth (so hard to know what it's affecting!) - I can usually get a decent sound with just that, but occasionally resort to more cut at 800 or so if I'm being fussy.
Will be interested to hear how you get on tonight! All the best!
Keith
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Post by jackorion on Jun 14, 2018 15:50:13 GMT
Well I nipped into a local shop to quickly try a GE-7...
Not very impressed I have to say, very noisy, even when cutting!
So I’ll just be taking the orchid tonight and see how that copes... unfortunately the AGF guys keep recommending the Grace Design preamps... they look very nicey, but are very pricey also!
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