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Post by jackorion on Jul 12, 2018 11:08:55 GMT
Here's an update after a couple of gigs with this setup... So I actually picked up a new ParaEq as well as I thought I might forego using my Orchid Preamp and just buy a simple DI and then use the two ParaEQs for my EQ needs. Took this setup to a gig last weekend and it didn't turn out too well - unfortunately I was dealing with a very inexperienced sound person and only had a 15 minute changeover period. My Collings with the K&K was putting out a tonne of low end that was distorting the PA - I think it could have been dealt with by engaging a HPF on the desk and reducing a bit of bass in the speakers themselves (afterwards I saw that the active speakers had a control for 80hz which was boosted about 10dB) but the sound person didn't seem to know what I was talking about and it was starting to go on a little so I ended up just using my Anthem equipped Martin for the gig. After the show (I was the closing act in a festival tent) I had some time to play the Collings through the PA on my own and, as suspected, engaging the HPF, trimming the bass back on the speakers themselves, and then taking a little more bass out on the channel strip solved all of the issues and took me about 20 seconds to do... oh well! After this gig I decided that I needed a HPF in the chain somewhere and, after some testing at home, decided that the Orchid Preamp must have one built in as it was taking a lot of low end out, so I've gone back to the single ParaEQ into the Orchid - I'll set the Orchid for a good tone with the Anthem and then adjust the Para for the K&K. Anyway I then had a restaurent gig yesterday where I was using my AER for my onstage sound and then sending a DI out to the house system, which is essentially a HiFi with multiple speakers around the venue. I can't use my Orchid with my AER as I need the XLR channel for vocals, but I set up the AER for a good sound with the Anthem and then used the Para to tweak the K&K. This seemed to work pretty well but I was getting some low-end thump coming through the house system that wasn't coming out of my AER (I assume it was something that the smaller speaker in the AER was cutting out but the DI was still sending to the house). It sounded to me as if if was my fingers and thumb pick hitting the strings that was causing the 'thump' as it was rhythmical but I managed to dial it out with the Para but it left me with quite a thin low end. It was okay in the end as I bought the low end back up a tad to a point with it was fine, but there was still this hint of thump going on I had a look at my K&K install this morning and, for some reason, the tech has aligned both outside sensors with the E strings rather than just the high E and B IMG_7383 by Ben Morgan-Brown, on Flickr The string balance is fine but I wonder if this is what's giving me that extra 'thump'? Anyway, I'm hoping I can find where it is (it seemed that a cut at 100hz was helping yesterday) and dial it out with the Para but then that doesn't leave me the option of notching out the 200hz area which seems to be troublesome too. I'll admit I'm starting to think about the Tonedexter and Grace options...
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Post by ocarolan on Jul 12, 2018 13:42:59 GMT
Shows how many sound guys, unlike guitar players, haven't much clue when it comes to "proper" acoustic guitar, unfortunately. But at least you got it sorterd one way and another.
... there certainly were some recommendations from K&K at one time to bias the relevant transducer towards the top E rather than the B, but going towards the low E away from the A seems just odd!
K&K, as with any SBT, do give any hand/bridge contact some often unwanted prominence - maybe another part of your "thump"?
A small decent quality mixer in your onstage kit might be some help, allowing you to use your Orchid with the AER though at the cost of some extra faffing. Works fine for me, though I haven't used the DI out to a serious PA like you did, so I may be talking b*ll*cks.
Keith
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Post by jackorion on Jul 12, 2018 14:38:24 GMT
Shows how many sound guys, unlike guitar players, haven't much clue when it comes to "proper" acoustic guitar, unfortunately. But at least you got it sorterd one way and another. ... there certainly were some recommendations from K&K at one time to bias the relevant transducer towards the top E rather than the B, but going towards the low E away from the A seems just odd! K&K, as with any SBT, do give any hand/bridge contact some often unwanted prominence - maybe another part of your "thump"? A small decent quality mixer in your onstage kit might be some help, allowing you to use your Orchid with the AER though at the cost of some extra faffing. Works fine for me, though I haven't used the DI out to a serious PA like you did, so I may be talking b*ll*cks. Keith Yes K&K currently recommend you place the transducer closer to the high E than the B and I did point this out to the chap who installed it and I can only guess that he's got confused and done it for both 'outside' transducers... It doesn't appear to be affecting the string balance and I don't want to risk killing the transducer with removal and replacement so I think I'll leave that. There's definitely some funky frequency response going on though - just spent an hour or two playing through my AER with all the different EQ options I currently have available to me - 2 ParaEQs, a Venue DI from LR Baggs and my Orchid... The best sound I got was with the Venue with the Para in the effects loop, with the venue's notch at 200 (which is -21dB) AND the ParaEQ notching out 200 at -15dB, cutting some 400hz and 800hz with the Venue, also cutting out a narrow band of 800hz with the ParaEQ, and then cutting another narrow band of 1.6kz on the ParaEQ... Notice they're all multiples of each other 200, 400, 800, 1600 - which is all around the F-G# notes at different octaves... So I just opened up my Logic file with the direct recording of the K&K saved on it and, lo and behold, if I do deep and narrow cuts at 100, 200, 400, 800 & 1600 the sound improves, and if I take those cuts in and out, you can really hear the nastiness return when they're not active... My two ParaEqs will allow me to cut at all of these frequencies, so the next test is how does that sound.. To be continued...
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Post by jackorion on Jul 12, 2018 19:47:01 GMT
So...
Cutting all of these frequencies - 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600 and 3200 - makes the K&K sound a lot better through the guitar channel of my AER and also through the Orchid and then into the mic channel...
It is taking out a little too much bass oomph for my liking but this is through the AER at home levels and not at volume. I'm hoping there might be a bit more kick through a decent PA - I also need to look at the narrowness of the cuts at 100 and 200 as they obviously take out the bass but they also seem to be the frequencies where the thump is.
Anyway, I'm gigging with the AER again tomorrow night, so I'll take both ParaEqs and set them up and see how that goes.
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Post by jackorion on Jul 14, 2018 9:32:46 GMT
okey dokey... So my gig last night turned out to be a bit of a challenging affair as the entire pub had been booked out for a 50th birthday party which was quite noisy and probably not all that interested in a bit of chilled out folk! Thankfully I got away with just playing everything faster and with longer intros, outros and instrumentals but it did mean that my AER was pretty cranked by the second set (channel volumes at 1/2 way each and volume at nearly 3/4). I started out with my K&K equipped Collings, using my ParaEQs to do -15db cuts at 50 (where the finger thump was happening), 200, 400, 800, 1600 and 3200 and then taking some mids out with the AER preamp and adding back a little treble, and bringing down the bass a tad just so it wasn't lumpy. I found cutting at 50 tamed most of the thump but didn't kill the bass like cutting at 100 did. It sounded pretty good I think - quite 'fat' due to the volume of the AER and the compression that it tends to add at volume, but it wasn't muddy and I could still play with some dynamics. I started the set with the Collings/K&K guitar tuned for standard and my Martin/Anthem in DADGAD - when it came to swap to the Martin I just turned off the EQ pedals and adjusted my AER for my usual Anthem settings... It sounded SOOOOOO thin! It was really weird like 'ouch, where did the tone go?!?' - I've never experienced this with my Martin before and I wonder if it was because my ears had got used to the 'fat' sound of the K&K but it just did not sound good, very scratchy on the top end (and normally I wouldn't say that at all about that guitar). So I ended up just playing the rest of the night with the Collings/K&K combo and retuning for songs rather than swapping out guitars - even in Open C the Collings didn't feedback once and the low end stayed powerful but contained - I probably could've bought it down a little bit more, but I felt I needed a bit of that power to make the songs feel more driven than they actually were. So all in all and interesting night and one which has added to my differing experiences of gigging guitars with very different sounding pickups. I also took along my other Collings which has an Anthem in it as well but I abandoned that during soundcheck as it just sounded really bad, again something I've not experienced with that guitar before - admittedly the Anthem in that guitar has always been a bit bass light and a bit shrill at times, but I took that guitar for the C tunings and, even though it sounds fine in those tuning unplugged (despite it's short scale) I plugged it in and the bass strings just sounded like rubber bands. I think I'm going to remove the Anthem in that guitar and add a K&K and see how that works. There were a few times where there was still a few 'honky' frequencies in the Collings/K&K tone - I think these were due to capo'ing different positions and having different open strings ringing out due to the volume I was playing at (my AER was on a chair in front of me so there wasn't a lot of distance between it and the guitar) plus I was stood in a little alcove so there was a lot of sound bouncing around me (at one point I was sure that the chorus had come on on the AER but I realised it was because I was moving around as I was playing and hearing the sound swirling about!) I have a, hopefully, nice listening audience gig at the weekend (Downend Folk Club) and then a little outdoor mini festival set on saturday (Brewhouse Theatre & Arts Centre, Taunton) so I shall see how the K&K/ParaEQ/Orchid DI combo works in those situations... I'm sorry if these posts are a bit repetitive and long and boring - hopefully there's some info in them that might be of use for other gigging players, but it's also good for me to put my thoughts out there as if I talk to my girlfriend about it she just glazes over!!!
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Post by ocarolan on Jul 14, 2018 9:55:24 GMT
Not at all boring, Ben. Certainly emphasises how critical the venue can be, and how a lot of adaptation to suit it can be necessary. And being able to accept less than perfect results! Thankfully the punters don't care much either way. Always nice to know that the sound is good though for personal satisfaction and because it aids better playing.
I never got on with using different pickups, preferring to stick with the same in everything - then usually only minimal adjustment when changing instruments. My other guitars, and even mandolin tend to need little moree than a volume tweak. Except my octave mandolin which is intentionally a very middly sounding thing acoustically - usually needs a load of extra mid-cut when plugged in.
Had hoped to get down to the Brewhouse next week, but seems it is not to be - have a good day!
Keith
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Post by brianr2 on Jul 14, 2018 10:34:51 GMT
I find this quest for the holy grail fascinating.
The son of a friend is just getting into music production - something that is easy to take for granted until you hear the difference between it being done well and done badly.
Sometime I think things would be so much easier if our ears weren’t so discerning or we simply didn’t care. But things are never done well well by the indifferent and what’s the point of playing if you are not concerned with the result?
Brian
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Post by jackorion on Jul 14, 2018 14:36:14 GMT
I find this quest for the holy grail fascinating. The son of a friend is just getting into music production - something that is easy to take for granted until you hear the difference between it being done well and done badly. Sometime I think things would be so much easier if our ears weren’t so discerning or we simply didn’t care. But things are never done well well by the indifferent and what’s the point of playing if you are not concerned with the result? Brian it's a fine line between caring enough, caring too much, and not caring enough! I have a friend who gigs a lot more than me and he's always used either a fishman rare earth or a Lr Baggs Element pickup and an Orchid DI. He's thrown a lot of different reverbs and delays etc in the mix over the years but he's stuck with those pickups. To his ear they sound fine and I suppose it means he doesn't have to worry too much about feedback etc but I've always thought his plugged in tone could be so much better and, when we've played on the same bill, he has commented that my guitars sound better plugged in. That's not a brag, but it's something I'd agree with. But then I've spent lots and lots of time researching and working on that whereas he doesn't see it as worth the effort - he has a tone that's fine and he'd rather spend time on other aspects of the 'craft'. It's horses for course I suppose - it's worth the effort in my opinion to put some extra work in getting a good tone, but it's also worth remembering that it can be a wormhole that distracts from things like practise and writing!
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Post by jackorion on Sept 22, 2018 11:49:27 GMT
I thought I’d add a postscript to this to let everyone know what the outcome was, if you’re still interested…
So, after much deliberation and a few more gigs with the ParaEQ/Orchid setup, I decided that it wasn’t working for me, and was also a bit cumbersome and complicated.
I wrote down a list of what I needed in a preamp:
2 Separate Channels Notch Filter Sweepable Mids Amp out Able to send both signals to board down one XLR, but also be able to split Muteable Easily powered
and what fit the bill was the Grace Design Felix. Which was a shame as they are expensive! However, looking at what I was currently using (2 paraEQ, Orchid DI, Strymon Bluesky, pedal train pedalboard, Truetone power supply) I was taking out equipment that added up to the same price anyway.
So I bit the bullet and ordered one. I took it to a rehearsal room close to me and plugged it into their PA and cranked it to louder than gig levels… It didn’t immediately sound ‘amazing’ but, compared to the Orchid, it was instantly quieter and clearer sounding. Once I got the hang of all the EQ options I managed to dial in a really good tone for both my OM2T with the K&K and my Martin with the Anthem.
Initially I used the HPF setting to cut out a tonne of low end but, at a gig, I noticed it did sound really thin, so I swapped to using that control as a notch and notching out the main feedback/honk frequency, which is between 100 and 200hz - this suddenly gave me a much cleaner tone and I could hear the low end without mud, and the K&K started to sound really good.
I set the mids of a relatively shallow Q setting, and I’m cutting a bit chunk out between 600 - 800 depending on the venue and the guitar.
I also had the Anthem SL in my Collings OM2ss taken out and a K&K Mini put in it and it sounds better now unplugged and plugged in, which I didn’t think I’d ever say! I’m certain that the guitar is richer sounding without the Anthem installed which is interesting as I don’t think I noticed a difference when I had it installed in my Martin… The Martin still has the Anthem by the way as I want a ‘plug and play’ solution for gigs where it might not be practical to take my own preamp and I’m expected to go straight into a DI and the Anthem works really, really well for that in that particular guitar.
I’ve been using the Grace Felix now with both my K&K equipped Collings for a few gigs and, last night, I returned to the venue where I played the 50th Birthday party - again it was fairly loud at some points and my setup was the two Collings, into the Grace, then out into my AER Compact 60… It sounded, great! A fat sound that was present and thick without being mushy, lots of clarity and detail, no feedback!
I’ve had some compliments from venues where I’ve played before on how good my sound is now compared to previously - part of this is just the fact that I gig a lot more now so my standard of playing and singing has gone up a bit, but one guy said that my guitars sounded so ‘clear’ that he could really hear what I was doing this time compared to previously so that was good.
I also managed to find a manfrotto camera backpack that has adjustable compartments inside and it opens up flat so I can fit my Grace, my cables, two stands, and my accessories in one bag on my back and then carry a guitar in each hand… it’s a really nice compact setup and everything is well protected in the bag too.
Anyway, in conclusion, it was a bit of a tiresome journey moving over the the K&K from the Anthem SL and, at times, I thought I’d made a mistake in doing it and should’ve just stayed where I was with my Martin and Orchid combo. There are still times when I will take just my Martin to gigs if I’m setting up quickly or travelling by train etc as, for those gigs, often I need to walk on, plug in, line check and then go so having the added step of setting up the Grace is a bit of a faff.
However, based on the few gigs I’ve done so far, the Collings, K&K and Grace setup is working really well - it gives me many options for routing the signal (for example, I can send the guitars to my amp onstage, as well as giving the sound person a separate line for each guitar so they can adjust the volume between them, or I can send them both guitars from one XLR output and then adjust the volume myself), I can change between guitars silently onstage as well as mute for tuning (last night I used the tuner out to plug in a Boss tuner as I knew the venue would be loud and my headstock tuner might not be that accurate), and I have plenty of EQ to handle the sound before it gets to the desk and to adjust if the sound person isn’t up to the task. I also really like that it is just powered by a regular kettle lead - no arriving at gigs and realising you haven’t got the correct power supply as there’s normally one lying around in every venue somewhere (and, anyway, I have two in my AER carry case!).
It’s been an expensive few months getting everything down, and sometimes I look at what I’m taking to a gig and think ‘wow, there’s a lot of cash tied up in this equipment, should I really be gigging this?’ but the sound and satisfaction I get from using my best guitars live is worth it I think.
anyway, I hope this thread wasn’t too boring for everyone - if you have any questions just ask and I’ll try my best to answer them - I don’t have any video or clips of the Collings/K&K/Grace setup yet but I might be having a gig filmed soon so I’ll put that up if it comes out alright
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Post by jackorion on Sept 22, 2018 11:56:54 GMT
For the real geeks, here's a photo of the camera bag I'm using: fullsizeoutput_100c by Ben Morgan-Brown, on Flickr Virtually everything I need to gig fits in this bag... that is: Grace Felix 2 x XLR 3 x Guitar cables 1 x power lead 2 x Cooper guitar stands 1 x extension lead 2 x capos 1 x Boss TU2 and there's still space for nail files, spare batteries, a couple of pens, some CDs to sell, fishermans friends (for gigs where I've got a cold!) and a notebook. There's a pocket on the front where I can stash my phone and wallet during the gig and it's easy to carry.
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Post by soundout on Sept 27, 2018 23:51:13 GMT
Hello Ben I've read this thread with interest as I'm both a player with a desire for perfect acoustic guitar sound, and a pro sound engineer specialising in folk festivals - our CV Audio team provides sound at about 13-14 festivals per year. First of all, let me say how sad I was to read how much hassle you've had with sound people. Beats me why anyone would put themselves on the spot, where their work is audible to hundreds of people at once, then neglect to even halfway do a decent job. I'm fairly sure that lots of your problems are caused by bad FOH sound rather than your own gear. That said, you have bitten the bullet and bought one of the most excellent preamps available, and everyone speaks highly of them. You also mention your desire to be able to do a quick setup with a minimum of 'thinking time' during your show. It's essential to engage the audience at all times and not get distracted by adjusting your gear. A good sound person would take this burden right off you, no matter what equipment you are using. But you are in the real world and sometimes, sadly, we have to say 'if you want a job doing, do it yourself'. So all respect to you for going the extra mile. In my soound engineer capacity, I often get players on my stage with enormous convoluted pedalboards which have probably grown organically to the point where the players no longer clearly know just what job each box is doing, if any. Then my job as a sound person is sometimes made even more difficult, as the player gets a good sound with me at the start of the show, then proceeds to tweak his sound out of all recognition. For that reason, one high quality preamp which can be quickly and simply set up is a great idea. I've recently posted an in-depth review of the ToneDexter preamp - check out the reviews section. But rest assured that my 'gear guru' Bob Thomas of Sound on Sound magazine is keeping both his Felix AND his ToneDexter. Good luck with the gigging, and I'll keep my fingers crossed that your future sound people are more dedicated than the ones you describe here. All the best Alistair Russell
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Post by jackorion on Sept 28, 2018 7:49:00 GMT
Hello Ben I've read this thread with interest as I'm both a player with a desire for perfect acoustic guitar sound, and a pro sound engineer specialising in folk festivals - our CV Audio team provides sound at about 13-14 festivals per year. First of all, let me say how sad I was to read how much hassle you've had with sound people. Beats me why anyone would put themselves on the spot, where their work is audible to hundreds of people at once, then neglect to even halfway do a decent job. I'm fairly sure that lots of your problems are caused by bad FOH sound rather than your own gear. That said, you have bitten the bullet and bought one of the most excellent preamps available, and everyone speaks highly of them. You also mention your desire to be able to do a quick setup with a minimum of 'thinking time' during your show. It's essential to engage the audience at all times and not get distracted by adjusting your gear. A good sound person would take this burden right off you, no matter what equipment you are using. But you are in the real world and sometimes, sadly, we have to say 'if you want a job doing, do it yourself'. So all respect to you for going the extra mile. In my soound engineer capacity, I often get players on my stage with enormous convoluted pedalboards which have probably grown organically to the point where the players no longer clearly know just what job each box is doing, if any. Then my job as a sound person is sometimes made even more difficult, as the player gets a good sound with me at the start of the show, then proceeds to tweak his sound out of all recognition. For that reason, one high quality preamp which can be quickly and simply set up is a great idea. I've recently posted an in-depth review of the ToneDexter preamp - check out the reviews section. But rest assured that my 'gear guru' Bob Thomas of Sound on Sound magazine is keeping both his Felix AND his ToneDexter. Good luck with the gigging, and I'll keep my fingers crossed that your future sound people are more dedicated than the ones you describe here. All the best Alistair Russell Hi Alistair, Thanks for your post - it is a shame when the sound person isn't up to the task but, for some of the 'fringe' stages I'm playing at festivals, they're often inexperienced or volunteers so the reality is that they often don't have the skills to deal with common issues or the experience to adjust the sound with confidence. Mainly it would seem that dialling out troublesome EQ and adjusting monitor mixes are the main skills lacking... Obviously it's amazing when you get a sound engineer who understands their job and listens to the music and your requests and those are always the gigs where I can relax and just get on with playing at my best - those engineers are worth their weight in gold and I always ask the audience for a round of applause for the sound when it's good so they get a little bit of love! And, to be fair, at most of my gigs I don't have an issue with the sound, but it's the ones where you do when you realise you need a way of coping! The Felix allows me to set a basic tone before I'm even plugged in that I know will be close enough, and they I only really have to tweak the mids or the notch once I'm on stage - once it's dialled in I don't need to do anything unless there's a change from elsewhere (ie changing the monitor mix so I get low end feedback), and I now have the tools to deal with that quickly and simply. Having said that I try not to fiddle with anything once I'm set up, I don't want to be fighting the sound person all night. Having some peace of mind that I know MY side of the bargain is being kept is worth a lot to me - it doesn't always mean the sound is perfect (hence why I'm now starting to think about taking my AER 60/3 as my own monitor) but it means that I know I have the tools to deal with most issues. I have been intrigued by the Tonedexer, and I'd love to try one out, but I'm very happy with my current K&K/Felix setup. Enjoyed some of your youtube videos btw!
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Post by andyhowell on Sept 28, 2018 8:17:38 GMT
Well I nipped into a local shop to quickly try a GE-7... Not very impressed I have to say, very noisy, even when cutting! So I’ll just be taking the orchid tonight and see how that copes... unfortunately the AGF guys keep recommending the Grace Design preamps... they look very nicey, but are very pricey also! Tone Dexter. A game changer.
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Post by Cams on Sept 28, 2018 9:12:06 GMT
Fascinating thread. I've been chasing good sound for years. If I may though, a quick aside...
I have some basic skills when it comes to studio and live mixing. That has led to my being called upon to run sound for gigs locally. If fact I've got another one next week. There's no substitute for experience, and that's the one thing that I have too little of. I try to be sensitive to what the musicians want, whilst being considerate of the venue's needs as well. It's a fine balancing act. I just tell myself on the way out that I can only do my best and that helps a little, but I'm certainly not one the experienced kind of guys that can walk around a room and cite frequencies that need adjusting!
And on the flipside, we used to have a soundguy that was always stressed and would have a go at me for bringing a preamp out my bag, I mean a real go, like I was trying to make his job difficult! We stopped using that guy and I wound up having to mix a five-piece band from stage whilst playing! That band included a fiddle player who refused to use a fiddle pickup and insisted on using the same mic for vocals and fiddle. The whole band was anti in-ears and the fiddler constantly wanted more of everything in the monitor.
All that to say it's a minefield out there!
I've still never been truly satisfied with my live guitar tone, but I'm not playing enough right now to justify continuing with the experimentation. Nobody's ever complained about the tone; in fact, I've heard some pretty ropey tone from pros, including Paul Simon of all people!
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Post by jackorion on Sept 28, 2018 15:19:02 GMT
Well I nipped into a local shop to quickly try a GE-7... Not very impressed I have to say, very noisy, even when cutting! So I’ll just be taking the orchid tonight and see how that copes... unfortunately the AGF guys keep recommending the Grace Design preamps... they look very nicey, but are very pricey also! Tone Dexter. A game changer. Hi Andy - have already gone with the Grace Felix and I'm happy with it for now... never say never though!
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