Martin
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Post by Martin on Jul 18, 2018 8:30:47 GMT
How do you all feel about changing bridge pins in guitars?
It seems that the bigger manufacturers of 'premium' guitars (Martin, Gibson, Taylor) like to send their guitars out with plastic bridge pins.
This seemed silly to me, and I've read tonnes about people immediately upgrading their pins (if not saddles, nuts etc) to bone or hard wood - maybe even mammoth!
I didn't believe the effect on sound would be noticeable, but I've done it a few times just for looks and thought it was worthwhile to get rid of the plastic.
I've just done it again, remove plastic pins from a nice guitar and putting in ebony and immediately I noticed what I believe to be a slight degradation in the sound - a loss of sustain on the bass strings, if not volume as well.
It just made me think - do these makers know something about the qualities of plastic bridge pins, or is it all nonsense and makes no difference at all? I thought it didn't other than looks, but was surprised when I did a swap the other day.
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Post by scorpiodog on Jul 18, 2018 9:44:20 GMT
Are you sure you've got the right size bridge pins and that the strings are seated properly?
I've always been very sceptical about bridge pins of similar mass having an effect on sound because of the material they're made from. I can't understand why there would be a difference when they don't form part of the components that transfer string vibration to the top.
I could understand it if the mass was different, that would affect the vibration of the top.
Did you change anything else? String type/gauge/make for example.
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Post by bellyshere on Jul 18, 2018 9:48:59 GMT
I like the brass pins and do think they sound better in my Martin than the plastic ones. Then again i also thought Mmmmmm Bop by Hanson was a good song when it first came out, so what do i know.
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Post by scorpiodog on Jul 18, 2018 10:00:33 GMT
I like the brass pins and do think they sound better in my Martin than the plastic ones. Then again i also thought Mmmmmm Bop by Hanson was a good song when it first came out, so what do i know. That makes sense to me, because brass is much heavier than plastic/bone/ivory/fossilised hippo/dinosaur tooth/unicorn horn. Musical tastes change. I used to like "I was Kaiser Bill's Batman" by Whistling Jack Smith. So you can definitely be forgiven for Hansen.
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colins
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 2,318
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Post by colins on Jul 18, 2018 11:26:29 GMT
I did a lot of tests on various wood types in the lab,using standardised dimensions and a range of frequencies, to see what proportion of a signal was lost in transmission and at what frequency. These test were carried out both across the grain and with the grain. We of course didn't test the plastic as used in pins as even from first principles you know it's not going to be the greatest transmitter of energy.
The usual suspects came out best at transmitting; BRW, Madagascan Rosewood, Cocobolo, etc, right at the bottom was ebony, it was particularly good at muting the higher frequencies. Now larger manufacturers may find this a useful thing as they tend to build with thicker tops than the custom makers which therefore tend to be balanced more toward the trebles and not so the basses, to get a better balance then they can use an ebony bridge especially to reduce the treble, ebony or plastic pins would have a similar, if reduced, effect.
We also tested similar sized blocks of Ivoroid and bone, both of which were excellent transmitters of energy, with if anything Ivoroid coming out on top. I'd love to make an Ivoroid bridge one day.
There is nothing of course that says you have to use the same type of pin for every string, it may be that you have a guitar with over bright trebles, well stick some ebony pins just in those strings, or maybe you want to bring out more bass, well some Ivoroid or bone or even rosewood pins would help there. Think Martin Carthy.
Colin
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Post by scorpiodog on Jul 18, 2018 12:16:50 GMT
I did a lot of tests on various wood types in the lab,using standardised dimensions and a range of frequencies, to see what proportion of a signal was lost in transmission and at what frequency. These test were carried out both across the grain and with the grain. We of course didn't test the plastic as used in pins as even from first principles you know it's not going to be the greatest transmitter of energy. The usual suspects came out best at transmitting; BRW, Madagascan Rosewood, Cocobolo, etc, right at the bottom was ebony, it was particularly good at muting the higher frequencies. Now larger manufacturers may find this a useful thing as they tend to build with thicker tops than the custom makers which therefore tend to be balanced more toward the trebles and not so the basses, to get a better balance then they can use an ebony bridge especially to reduce the treble, ebony or plastic pins would have a similar, if reduced, effect. We also tested similar sized blocks of Ivoroid and bone, both of which were excellent transmitters of energy, with if anything Ivoroid coming out on top. I'd love to make an Ivoroid bridge one day. There is nothing of course that says you have to use the same type of pin for every string, it may be that you have a guitar with over bright trebles, well stick some ebony pins just in those strings, or maybe you want to bring out more bass, well some Ivoroid or bone or even rosewood pins would help there. Think Martin Carthy. Colin I stand corrected. If colins says it makes a difference, I wouldn't dream of arguing. But, Colin, how much contribution does the bridge pin make to the vibration transference between string and top? And could you please explain the mechanism, because I just can't figure out how it is an important part of the chain. I'm explaining this badly, but I don't have the vocabulary. I can see how saddle, bridge and top make a difference. And the back after the energy transfer has taken place to the top. Even sides as I'm guessing the stiffness transmits energy to the back. I can understand the mass of the material the pins are made from alters the vibration of the top.But where does the vibration come from and go to with the pins? I'm sweating now from trying to make my question understandable. Accountancy is so much simpler.
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Post by andyhowell on Jul 18, 2018 12:32:39 GMT
Brass pins definitely do something to the sound but I’m not sure if I like it!
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colins
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 2,318
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Post by colins on Jul 18, 2018 13:09:57 GMT
I did a lot of tests on various wood types in the lab,using standardised dimensions and a range of frequencies, to see what proportion of a signal was lost in transmission and at what frequency. These test were carried out both across the grain and with the grain. We of course didn't test the plastic as used in pins as even from first principles you know it's not going to be the greatest transmitter of energy. The usual suspects came out best at transmitting; BRW, Madagascan Rosewood, Cocobolo, etc, right at the bottom was ebony, it was particularly good at muting the higher frequencies. Now larger manufacturers may find this a useful thing as they tend to build with thicker tops than the custom makers which therefore tend to be balanced more toward the trebles and not so the basses, to get a better balance then they can use an ebony bridge especially to reduce the treble, ebony or plastic pins would have a similar, if reduced, effect. We also tested similar sized blocks of Ivoroid and bone, both of which were excellent transmitters of energy, with if anything Ivoroid coming out on top. I'd love to make an Ivoroid bridge one day. There is nothing of course that says you have to use the same type of pin for every string, it may be that you have a guitar with over bright trebles, well stick some ebony pins just in those strings, or maybe you want to bring out more bass, well some Ivoroid or bone or even rosewood pins would help there. Think Martin Carthy. Colin I stand corrected. If colins says it makes a difference, I wouldn't dream of arguing. But, Colin, how much contribution does the bridge pin make to the vibration transference between string and top? And could you please explain the mechanism, because I just can't figure out how it is an important part of the chain. I'm explaining this badly, but I don't have the vocabulary. I can see how saddle, bridge and top make a difference. And the back after the energy transfer has taken place to the top. Even sides as I'm guessing the stiffness transmits energy to the back. I can understand the mass of the material the pins are made from alters the vibration of the top.But where does the vibration come from and go to with the pins? I'm sweating now from trying to make my question understandable. Accountancy is so much simpler. Properly fitted bridge pins, effectively become part of the bridge, modifying its inherent characteristics. Don't think about wood for a minute, let's do a thought experiment, imagine really bright is represented by white and really muted is black. If you want to modify the white bridge to slightly less bright, add a little black and you'll get a light grey bridge, so you need a more black bridge pin. Conversely if you want to make a black bridge brighter, add white pins. It's wrong to think of a guitar as separate elements, once they are intimately joined they act as a whole. Oh and the biggest change you can make with the bridge pins is switching from slotted pins to unslotted with a slotted bridge, this places the ball of the string in much better contact with the bridge plate, rather than eating away at the edge of the hole. Colin
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Post by scorpiodog on Jul 18, 2018 15:13:16 GMT
Properly fitted bridge pins, effectively become part of the bridge, modifying its inherent characteristics. Don't think about wood for a minute, let's do a thought experiment, imagine really bright is represented by white and really muted is black. If you want to modify the white bridge to slightly less bright, add a little black and you'll get a light grey bridge, so you need a more black bridge pin. Conversely if you want to make a black bridge brighter, add white pins. It's wrong to think of a guitar as separate elements, once they are intimately joined they act as a whole. Oh and the biggest change you can make with the bridge pins is switching from slotted pins to unslotted with a slotted bridge, this places the ball of the string in much better contact with the bridge plate, rather than eating away at the edge of the hole. Colin Thanks, Colin. I need to wrap a damp towel around my head and sit in a darkened room to get my head around this. But it'll have to wait til I'm out of the office.
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brianr2
C.O.G.
Posts: 3,047
My main instrument is: Brook Lyn guitar
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Post by brianr2 on Jul 18, 2018 20:12:29 GMT
Thanks colins for your contributions. It is rare to see proper scientific method applied to acoustic guitars. There is so much folklore, commercial self-interest and blind prejudice about guitar building. Examples included proprietary bracings, woolly mammoth bridge pins, “new” woods etc etc. While personal preference is bound to be subjective, so many sweeping claims by makers are amenable to robust scientific assessment and this would make things so much clearer. The only other scientific study I am aware of was the one by Birmingham Univesity supported by Roger Bucknall (someone who is adamant that plastic bridge pins are good enough!) which, if memory serves, showed that received wisdom about wood choices counted for little when evaluated in blind listening and playing sessions. I should be very interested in any other controlled experiments that you have conducted. It is a pity that there is not a refereed Journal of Luther’s Science but I guess this woild hit the profits of some of the major companies. Brian
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Post by scripsit on Jul 18, 2018 22:59:00 GMT
You could consider the bridge to be a brace: it's just that it's an external one.
Just as the other (internal) top braces contribute to volume, tone and overtone production of the guitar, the bridge plays a part, too.
Unless you've got bridge pins rattling around in the holes, they, once inserted, become part of the bridge.
The overall mass of the bridge seems to be a key factor in guitar sound (there is a big section in the Gore books about this, and reducing weight is one of the reasons for using carbon fibre, ebonising light weight wood rather that using ebony and so on). If you don't like the sound of a particular guitar, swapping out plastic or wood pins for brass or titanium or depleted uranium will (perhaps) change it, at least if the top is lightly built.
By the way, if the strings are seated properly (and as Colin suggests, slotted pins help achieve this), you can take the pins out completely, once you've tuned up to pitch.
I've tried this on a cheap Martin dread, but could detect no audible change with the pins out. Feels a bit insecure, too, like having one's fly open.
Kym
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Post by dreadnought28 on Jul 18, 2018 22:59:03 GMT
Brass pins definitely do something to the sound but I’m not sure if I like it! Same here
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Post by grayn on Jul 19, 2018 13:00:32 GMT
I remember, back in the day, when I had a load of acoustics, that when changing strings, those beautiful exotic wood end pins were always more problematic than the bog standard, plastic ones.
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Post by bleatoid on Jul 19, 2018 22:44:53 GMT
Well I have no idea about the physics surrounding this stuff, but while I could be persuaded either way as regards the audio impact of different pin materials I do wonder why we still do it that way.
I look at my lovely Martin (00-18v) and think it really deserves better than a crappy and arcane plastic pin / friction-based string anchoring mechanism that eventually cuts into the ebony bridge wood.
Is there some glaring reason why all manufacturers don't use a pinless bridge as per Lowden (I don't own one) - has it been patented? Does it impact performance in some way that a non-Lowden wouldn't tolerate?
There has to be a better way than crappy-placky pins in the year 2018.....
Hasn't there?
Peter
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leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 24,455
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
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Post by leoroberts on Jul 20, 2018 7:30:28 GMT
I put brass pins on my Moon 0003. I have no idea what, if any, difference they make to the sound but they have little moons on them and they were a pressie. Bite me
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