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Post by scorpiodog on Sept 22, 2019 9:47:36 GMT
If I might just get in here quickly before this closes down.
I have an opinion on the matter which I will not express. It would take too long and is extremely complex.
However, I do not agree with closing down debate. Particularly on this forum because, if there is ever a place where measured argument is listened to and differences accepted, then this is it.
Even in a wider context, where things often get heated, debate should never be closed down for various reasons, the main one being that if things cannot be discussed they will retreat underground where they can cause immense harm. How can anybody be persuaded of the error of their ways unless their point of view can be aired and discussed?
My five penn’orth. Doesn’t add anything to the op, but I do think it important.
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Post by bleatoid on Sept 22, 2019 11:18:29 GMT
"If the 'mods' now wish to close the thread that's OK with me." I'd find that very sad - on a personal level, at least before someone has answered early question - where is the offence? I certainly agree that the passion of the subject inevitably leads to unhelpful and inflammatory vitriol from some quarters - often from the impassioned who have no direct experience of the pain of discrimination; moreover we can easily be drawn into non-sequiturs - there have been a few here - but that shouldn't stifle relevant constructive debate on a subject where the boundaries of acceptability are, dare I say it, not black and white. Facts and calm rationale are good though. I don't believe skipellis was advocating war and death as a solution to anything. When it comes to Geordies and oppression, racism, exploitation, massacre, rape, slavery and forced labour well I don't think the Vikings, Scots and Romans went there for a nice cup of tea. And yes - the motive was racist. Personally, I think you can't legislate for morals and proscribe evil - if you try, you are doomed - ask the founding fathers of socialism like Mr Rousseau - you might be alarmed to find that, on cultures, peoples, tribalism and societies, he sounds astonishingly like Mr (Enoch) Powell. But celebrating and understanding differences is the only way to break down prejudice and that, because we are human, will entail poking fun and making caricatures - never moreso than in arts and music - thst's what gives it richness, in my humble opinion. To try and draw something musical from this thread (for which I thank the OP) I have set myself the silly challenge of ending my contribution with a song - which I will try and complete and post today to cheer myself up. God knows, I need something to! Where's me pen....
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Sept 22, 2019 12:46:39 GMT
yes indeed I have been watching this thread closely, but can't see any reason to close it, at least not yet.
The thread has been largely characterised, as I would expect from our members, by civilised rational points well made, despite some of them being a little astray from the original question and not, as John has just reminded us, quite what was being asked, though certainly relevant as background and context.
Don't have any problem with strong opinions provided they are expressed politely and without personal animosity and with the recognition that "other opinions are available"! I've found it an interesting thread to read.
Keith
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Post by andyhowell on Sept 22, 2019 15:50:13 GMT
Cultural desert like hell!
I ask myself two simple questions.
Would I sing it to an audience. No.
Would I be happy if somebody sang it at one of the sessions I run. No.
And then I ask myself the question, given how many songs there are in the world why on earth did he pick this one?
Frankly, if I was in the audience I’d leave and go to the pub.
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Post by robmc on Sept 22, 2019 16:16:57 GMT
Having read a bit more about the origins of the song, it was a folk song sung by dock workers loading crates of bananas onto ships, they sang it to pass away the time during the night until the sun came up and their shift ended. Given this if someone performed a version that worked with the spirit of the song and explained the context I'd be OK with it.
I remember when I first moved to Norfolk and people called me 'boy' I didn't like it but having lived here long enough I learnt it was a colloquial term for 'mate'... 'Good old boy', 'are you alright boy' etc. No offence meant, and once I knew the context, none taken.
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Post by Amit on Sept 22, 2019 16:36:31 GMT
I think that if you have to question 'is this racist?' then, on some level, it is. I also think that asking if you should be offended if a 'dark skinned chap from Asia' pretends to be a geordie you're missing the point - as far as I'm aware Geordies have never been denied housing or work, been classed as an inferior race, had their forebearers traded as property, been beaten up , had disgusting filthy names shouted at them in the street and all other kinds of terrible experiences simply because the colour of their skin is different to the 'dark skinned chap from Asia'. Nearly 60'000 US Soldiers died in the Vietnam war and anything up to 250'000 South Vietnamese soldiers died - that's 300'000 people who didn't do any growing up. 'Political Correctness gone mad' arguments puzzle me - are you saying that sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia etc etc shouldn't be regarded as unacceptable? There will always be people who are quick to take offence when, perhaps, offence is not intentionally meant, and there are always people who intentionally mean offence and will claim they don't. Even though it's an aggravating phrase 'Political Correctness' is not really about 'snowflakes' or being 'woke' or stopping people expressing themselves - it's about being aware that society has moved on from the days where white heterosexual men could do and say whatever the hell they liked to anyone else because they held all the social power. I'm not going to get involved in a debate on here as I don't think internet forums are the place for these discussions as it's easy to misinterpret words on a screen as more aggressive and pointed than when they're said face to face - I'm not a fan of censorship but I think the mods should keep a very close eye on this thread. I agree with Ben here, and I think the whole “political correctness gone mad”, “people need thicker skins” thing is a pretty lazy way of quashing debate (my opinion), or invalidating someone’s potentially very genuine offence. Going back to the original post, I personally don’t have very strong view one way or the other, other than, as you allude to, the lyrics make it particularly difficult to not sound as though you’re doing a caricature.. If it were me, I wouldn’t do it. My main thoughts from reading some of the wider posts on this thread are - unless you have yourself experienced ongoing prejudice, judgement, or opinions based on a protected characteristic which is being portrayed in song or a comedy routine or anything else, then you’re probably not the best placed person to deem it inoffensive. For me, context is everything. For example (and apologies to the OP for taking this slightly off topic, I’m just trying to make a wider point), if I, as a ‘dark skinned’ chap was to play a gig and someone from the audience came up to me afterwards and asked if I also played the sitar, you might think I was being a little touchy if I was overtly offended. But if it told you I get asked that question *at least* three times a night (sadly this is true, it can be much more), with it often being the first and only question someone asks, with no other comment on the songs I’ve just played, then you might understand my annoyance. Like I say, context is everything, and in the above example, I’d reserve the right to be offended. Again apologies for taking that off topic from the OP’s post.
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Sept 22, 2019 16:43:48 GMT
Cultural desert like hell! I ask myself two simple questions. Would I sing it to an audience. No. Would I be happy if somebody sang it at one of the sessions I run. No. And then I ask myself the question, given how many songs there are in the world why on earth did he pick this one? Frankly, if I was in the audience I’d leave and go to the pub. Hi Andy, I share many of your emotions but you would need to bear in mind that my group is 10-15 old fogies playing and singing largely singalong songs (nothing deep and meaningful or original) to audiences, usually after dinner, of anything between 50 and 150 oldies (average age probably 65-70) who haven't come to specifically hear us and part of our job is to keep them awake! It's not exactly a cultural event in a concert setting. Perhaps in this context the 'quality'of the song is less meaningful, it's more the PC element I was questioning. John Attachments:
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Post by andrewjw on Sept 22, 2019 18:32:59 GMT
I'm surprised that FFJ's query about a song as anodyne as "Banana Boat" should turn out be so contentious...particularly when you consider the type of group he plays with and the demographic of the audience they generally have. I'd guess that neither performers or audience would think twice about it and simply enjoy what is an easy song to play and a well known one [for that age group] to enjoy and sing along with. If anyone was to approach me having watched me play guitar and ask if I also played the the sitar Amit I'd be hugely flattered...surely a much more technical instrument to play than the ubiquitous 6 string . Much better than being asked if I also played the banjo ...
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Post by bleatoid on Sept 22, 2019 19:00:52 GMT
I see Amit’s point - it is racism in that the question is being asked purely on the basis of the colour of his skin, with the prior knowledge that he is an accomplished acoustic stringed instrumentalist.
I can understand his deep frustration, but can’t fathom out if there is an “offence” there - as it is a reasonable question.
If anyone ever saw me playing the guitar I’d be asked if I could play the guitar.
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Post by andrewjw on Sept 22, 2019 19:17:54 GMT
If anyone ever saw me playing the guitar I’d be asked if I could play the guitar. That would more than likely apply to me too...
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Post by Riverman on Sept 22, 2019 19:39:16 GMT
I see Amit’s point - it is racism in that the question is being asked purely on the basis of the colour of his skin, with the prior knowledge that he is an accomplished acoustic stringed instrumentalist. I can understand his deep frustration, but can’t fathom out if there is an “offence” there - as it is a reasonable question. But in that context it’s not a reasonable question is it? I’ve never been asked if I play the sitar. If the question is based on an assumption, and that assumption is based on skin colour, it may not have been the questioner’s intention to cause offence but if I were Amit I would have every right to feel offended.
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Post by bleatoid on Sept 22, 2019 19:49:45 GMT
Yes - I understand and acknowledge the racism inherent in the question, my conundrum is around the offence - and I truly don’t know the answer.
But I felt that knowing someone was an accomplished stringed instrumentalist, and having some information that can imply a cultural background, (goodness, this is difficult!) it is then reasonable (I presumed) to ask the sitar question.
But I fully acknowledge that I am sinking here.
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Post by Mike Floorstand on Sept 22, 2019 21:12:57 GMT
In theory I guess it could be done sympathetically, and with some musical/artistic integrity, but if I heard a white singer performing a song with a Caribbean accent I'd be very suspicious. The cultural predecessors - 1840s minstrelsy, 1970s B&W Minstrels, etc. - portrayed black people as ignorant, lazy, look funny, speak funny, etc. The underlying - or even explicit - message is that black people are an inferior race which therefore deserved/s enslavement, segregation, poor housing/education/health/jobs etc.
I'd be much less suspicious of someone singing (say) a sea shanty with (say) a Geordie accent - I'd assume they thought the dialect of the lyrics needed it, because they liked the accent, or even because they thought the accent is funny - because there is no comparable cultural baggage, the political relationship is not between an oppressor and oppressed.
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Post by bleatoid on Sept 22, 2019 21:19:50 GMT
I'd be much less suspicious of someone singing (say) a sea shanty with (say) a Geordie accent - I'd assume they thought the dialect of the lyrics needed it, because they liked the accent, or even because they thought the accent is funny - because there is no comparable cultural baggage, the political relationship is not between an oppressor and oppressed. Careful.... In this case, the extent of offence caused would depend entirely on whether the faux geordie accent was coming from a Sunderland supporter.
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Post by andyhowell on Sept 23, 2019 11:52:27 GMT
I'm finding this thread more than a little disturbing. A song's origins have little to do with the context in which they are used, after all time and standards move on.
Basically, I ask myself why do something that you sense might — and then discover — might offend people in this way?
It might be worth reflecting on how such views can narrow horizons.
A year ago I gave a spot to a guy who is a pretty good performer and songwriter. He played a set on a lovely Sunday afternoon when the audience was enjoying the sunshine and eating. This musician seemed to have had a few beers. He started making comments about his friend who was accompanying him. He kept referring to his mate as an 'Iti'. This was no doubt mentioned in jest but I had five complaints from the audience who found his comments offensive. In other circumstances I might have had a word with him about it but I'd been uncomfortable at comments I'd heard him make at another venue. We have simply never invited him back.
What I find bemusing about this thread is that it started with a question as to whether the song should be sung. People gave their honest responses and somehow they were then accused of being politically correct.
I'll be blunt. At best this would be in poor taste and at worst racist.
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