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Post by jackorion on Feb 24, 2020 18:52:07 GMT
Hey everyone,
for a few years now I've been using an UAD Apollo Twin to make home recordings. I've generally been happy with the sound of these and I've got used to the UAD plugins etc and have used them to mix a few other bits and bobs too - I also mastered my last EP using the Ampex tape plugin.
However... I'm never really satisfied and I've decided that it's because I'm trying to emulate a 'pro' setup using my amateur rirg - I don't have monitors, I don't have a treated room, I just use my regular bose headphones, I haven't got fancy mics etc etc
So I have booked some 'serious' studio time later in the year and that got me thinking - do I need this 'home studio' gear anymore? Really all I need to be able to do is record some demos now and then and maybe do a little bit of mixing sound from live recordings (the built in plugins in Logic are more than capable of doing this).
Maybe I need to change my mindset into home-demo-ing rather than home recording and actually downgrade my gear? All I really need is an interface and a mic (my ETL Edwina would be fine for demoing purposes). So I was thinking of maybe getting a decent field recorder that I could use to record gigs as well and just recording demos onto that and then transferring them to my mac for editing...
Part of my thought process is that I also need to raise funds for the studio time I've got booked and could move on my UAD and a couple of Rode mics to help contribute, and still have some cash to get a field recorder to use...
I know it seems like a drastic step down in quality, but I really don't think I need what I have at the moment, and I actually wonder if it stifles my creativity because I'm trying to make a 'finished' product that I'll never be happy with...
Anyway, though I might start a discussion...
p.s. if anyone's interested in a UAD Apollo Twin with a few tasty plugins... well you know where I am!
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Post by ocarolan on Feb 24, 2020 23:17:16 GMT
I think the best bit in there is to record more of your gigs - whatever the quality of those recordings you'll get a good insight into what your audience sees and hears and how you come across. Esp record the bits in between the songs too. I'm sure this will help you hone your already really good singing/playing/stagecraft to an even higher level. Building your audience at gigs has to be a main goal for you I'm sure
If you can keep home stuff as a songwriting aid and notepad kind of thing and can accept the limitations of that, then this would seem to be a good idea for you in your situation - provided that you can afford the studio time and other expertise for "decent" recordings, and that the result turns out to be what you are seeking! Another CD in the offing maybe....?
Keith
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Post by jackorion on Feb 25, 2020 9:02:03 GMT
I think the best bit in there is to record more of your gigs - whatever the quality of those recordings you'll get a good insight into what your audience sees and hears and how you come across. Esp record the bits in between the songs too. I'm sure this will help you hone your already really good singing/playing/stagecraft to an even higher level. Building your audience at gigs has to be a main goal for you I'm sure If you can keep home stuff as a songwriting aid and notepad kind of thing and can accept the limitations of that, then this would seem to be a good idea for you in your situation - provided that you can afford the studio time and other expertise for "decent" recordings, and that the result turns out to be what you are seeking! Another CD in the offing maybe....? Keith Hey Keith, Yep live is my main focus at the moment - I feel as if that's where I can connect best and, also, it's much more lucrative than recordings! Unfortunately though there does seem to be an attitude (particularly in the 'folk' world) that having an 'album' out makes you more viable for bookers and reviewers etc and I think those things still have weight in the folk world that they maybe don't in other genres (where perhaps social reach etc is valued more?). I'm also thinking that, if I can record enough gigs at good enough quality, there's the potential then for a 'live' album or, at the very least, a live tracklist I can show to promoters as a showreel - plus, as you say, I think it's good to have something to reference for improvement. So it looks like something like a Zoom H4n is in my gear future anyway - ideally I'd like to be able to record the 'room' as well as a feed from the desk and it seems the 4-track mode of the Zoom will do that whereas, ironically, higher end gear won't. So then i started thinking about the other equipment I have - I'm not really using my interface at it's full capability and I'm trying to focus at the moment on 'more music less gear' and it seems like admitting to myself that 'demo-quality' is fine for what I do at home is part of that journey - I don't need a £200 tape emulation plugin to record a decent demo fo a song at home for my own reference or for chucking on social media as a quick 'new song' post!
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Post by andyhowell on Feb 25, 2020 15:14:57 GMT
This makes a lot of sense. While it is nice to have the capacity to do something good at home there is nothing like somebody else prseeing the buttons, setting up the mics and using some quality outboard gear for recording.Foir recording, it is wonderful to be able to concerntrate soley on playing and singing. Mixing is more happily done in the box wherever.
There are many good interfaces on the market now at reaonsable prices and a whole lot more are coming, though whether it is worth selling the Apollo is another thing entirely. I'd be looking at an interface that was robust enough uilt to be able to move around.
I'm not sure what you mean by a field recorder. I find a Zoom H6 more than capable enoughof mobile recordings and taking recordings direct from the desk. I'm not sure where a more dedicated mobile recording solution would be worth it.
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Post by jackorion on Feb 25, 2020 17:48:14 GMT
This makes a lot of sense. While it is nice to have the capacity to do something good at home there is nothing like somebody else prseeing the buttons, setting up the mics and using some quality outboard gear for recording.Foir recording, it is wonderful to be able to concerntrate soley on playing and singing. Mixing is more happily done in the box wherever. There are many good interfaces on the market now at reaonsable prices and a whole lot more are coming, though whether it is worth selling the Apollo is another thing entirely. I'd be looking at an interface that was robust enough uilt to be able to move around. I'm not sure what you mean by a field recorder. I find a Zoom H6 more than capable enoughof mobile recordings and taking recordings direct from the desk. I'm not sure where a more dedicated mobile recording solution would be worth it. I've always referred to things like the H4 or Tascam DRs as field recorders and you can take them out 'into the field' and they're independent of anything else. in terms of doing 'something good at home' I think I can get good enough results with my Edwina into any recording device - good enough for my purposes anyway. I think I'm just ready to give up on the pretence that I can record something that's releasable at home - I'd rather save my pennies up until I can go to a studio and sit down and someone else can deal with all the XLRs and I can say 'the vocal seems a bit murky' and they can work out why that is and what it needs rather than me spending ten minutes recording and then three hours tweaking! I just wanna play! I'm warming towards the DR40x - it looks like I'd be able to use that in 4CH mode to record the room and the output of the desk at 24/96 and then edit it later in Logic to amke live recordings... I think the H4n 'pro' is the same as well. I think I'll sell my Apollo and then keep an eye out for a good ebay deal on a dr/hn...
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Post by PistolPete on Mar 3, 2020 18:54:31 GMT
I did much the same thing around 2016 - I just can't get the distance from my own stuff to mix it properly. I make demos (sometimes quite elaborate ones) in my home studio now, but nothing planned for release, and when I want something to release, I call a professional. I'm much happier and I think I get better recordings as a result of that. I don't mind doing other people's stuff as long as they understand the limitations of my set up though
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Post by jackorion on Mar 4, 2020 8:59:47 GMT
I did much the same thing around 2016 - I just can't get the distance from my own stuff to mix it properly. I make demos (sometimes quite elaborate ones) in my home studio now, but nothing planned for release, and when I want something to release, I call a professional. I'm much happier and I think I get better recordings as a result of that. I don't mind doing other people's stuff as long as they understand the limitations of my set up though Yep I'm definitely moving towards this attitude - if I'm being 100% honest with myself I'm not even sure I think my UAD plugins make 'demos' sound better - I'm sure they work on a big system where you can hear the details and you know exactly what you're doing but, recently, I've found that my preference is for a little bit of light compression from Logics own compressor, and a bit of low end cut and I'm done - I seem to chase my tail a lot with more plugins... The dilemma I have now is which portable recorder to go for - I like that the Tascam DR 40 and Zoom H4n allow you to record with the built in mics and an external mic, meaning I could set it up at gigs to record the room and the sound from the desk, but I also like that the Tascam DR100 has a built in rechargable battery and is a bit more 'road proof... I guess really it'll come down to whichever one I can pick up secondhand for a good price!
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Post by andyhowell on Mar 4, 2020 14:04:02 GMT
jackorion A little compression and low end cut sounds about right! It is too easy to go too far. I often find myself scrapping everything and starting again. The fiddling with all this stuff detracts from the playing andn singing all too easily! I've been using my Zoom H6 all over the place for five years now and it is pretty robust!
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Post by Matt Milton on Mar 4, 2020 16:57:53 GMT
Hmmm, I can't help but think you'll regret selling your Rodes. I don't know the UAD so know idea how much you'd get for it. My attitude towards selling off stuff is always 'how much will you actually get from it and how long would it take to earn that back?'. Obviously if you're literally never using something, then get rid of it, that's a given. But most of my gear would only get me a couple of hundred quid, and if I wanted to save a couple of hundred quid I could do that over a few months by tightening my belt here and there.
Say for the sake of argument in two years' time you want to record another album and money is much tighter, too tight to justify a studio, might you wish you had your Rodes mics then?
Personally I'm a big fan of the 'record yourself, get someone else to mix+master' approach. But that's cos I don't get on with recording studios. I suffer from red light fever. I need to be on my own with no pressure.
I have also never been to a really good studio so I've never experienced the 'wow factor' of listening back to something that sounds a noticeable step up in quality: frankly the studio recordings in budget studios that I have paid for haven't struck me as any better than home recordings, so I've never bothered to get them mixed.
By the way, a good trick someone once told me for mixing in untreated rooms is to import a reference track recording into your DAW. If you can find a track of a singer with a similar timbre to yours with an acoustic guitar sound you like then you can flick between your recording and theirs. It doesn't matter that you don't have an accurate listening environment, cos you are mixing to a reference that did have an accurate listening environment. Having two such reference tracks might be even better, as you can perhaps hear how far you might go in a particular direction (eg slightly bassier guitar or slightly toppier guitar; a very in-your-face vocal or a more muted vocal)
I no longer bother mixing though, it does my head in. I'd rather pay someone on fiverr to do it. My, this is a rambling post!
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Post by jackorion on Mar 4, 2020 17:36:38 GMT
Hmmm, I can't help but think you'll regret selling your Rodes. I don't know the UAD so know idea how much you'd get for it. My attitude towards selling off stuff is always 'how much will you actually get from it and how long would it take to earn that back?'. Obviously if you're literally never using something, then get rid of it, that's a given. But most of my gear would only get me a couple of hundred quid, and if I wanted to save a couple of hundred quid I could do that over a few months by tightening my belt here and there. Say for the sake of argument in two years' time you want to record another album and money is much tighter, too tight to justify a studio, might you wish you had your Rodes mics then? Personally I'm a big fan of the 'record yourself, get someone else to mix+master' approach. But that's cos I don't get on with recording studios. I suffer from red light fever. I need to be on my own with no pressure. I have also never been to a really good studio so I've never experienced the 'wow factor' of listening back to something that sounds a noticeable step up in quality: frankly the studio recordings in budget studios that I have paid for haven't struck me as any better than home recordings, so I've never bothered to get them mixed. By the way, a good trick someone once told me for mixing in untreated rooms is to import a reference track recording into your DAW. If you can find a track of a singer with a similar timbre to yours with an acoustic guitar sound you like then you can flick between your recording and theirs. It doesn't matter that you don't have an accurate listening environment, cos you are mixing to a reference that did have an accurate listening environment. Having two such reference tracks might be even better, as you can perhaps hear how far you might go in a particular direction (eg slightly bassier guitar or slightly toppier guitar; a very in-your-face vocal or a more muted vocal) I no longer bother mixing though, it does my head in. I'd rather pay someone on fiverr to do it. My, this is a rambling post! Yeah I hear you on the selling stuff... Part of it for me is I want to move my focus away from gear and onto music, and I think moving to a 'demo-ing' mindset and essentially just removing the idea from my head that I can make a proper recording at home will help. There might come a time when I regret moving the UAD and/or my mics on (although I'm planning to keep one Rode, my ETL, my SM57 and my AKG D5 so I will still have enough mics for the situations I'll need them in) but also I might not, and I need to raise a bit of money to help me fund going into a 'proper' studio with enough time to not have to rush through things, and that need is much more urgent at the moment.
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Post by andyhowell on Mar 6, 2020 11:11:34 GMT
Yeah I hear you on the selling stuff... Part of it for me is I want to move my focus away from gear and onto music, and I think moving to a 'demo-ing' mindset and essentially just removing the idea from my head that I can make a proper recording at home will help. Some people seem to be able to do it but I sure can't! Working at home tends to blend the playing and he recording into one mess that, frankly isn't always helpful!
But then studios cost! Good luck.
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Post by jackorion on Mar 8, 2020 20:41:30 GMT
Yeah I hear you on the selling stuff... Part of it for me is I want to move my focus away from gear and onto music, and I think moving to a 'demo-ing' mindset and essentially just removing the idea from my head that I can make a proper recording at home will help. Some people seem to be able to do it but I sure can't! Working at home tends to blend the playing and he recording into one mess that, frankly isn't always helpful!
But then studios cost! Good luck.
I think it's really hard not to get into the trap of saying 'I'll just see how that sounds' and then it's three hours of EQ adjustment later when you realise that maybe you should done more than two takes! the best results I've ever had from a home recording was one morning when I literally just stuck two mics up in roughly the position I thought they would sound good and then just recorded my entire live set without stopping - the sound wasn't particularly great (way too much low end on the guitar) but I got some really good performances as I was just 'throwing down some demos' - afterwards i then spent ages faffing with them before giving up and cutting a bit of low end and leaving it be... I really like those recordings despite their faults! Anyway, my interface has sold now so I guess it is a case of picking up a good deal on a portable recorder and getting on with writing songs!
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Post by andyhowell on Mar 9, 2020 11:14:50 GMT
I think it's really hard not to get into the trap of saying 'I'll just see how that sounds' and then it's three hours of EQ adjustment later when you realise that maybe you should done more than two takes! Err, yes :-)
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