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Post by jackorion on Apr 28, 2013 10:51:11 GMT
I seem to go through periods of playing where I focus on something or a particular song a lot and can hear myself getting better as I progress... Then I go through weeks of noodling and general 'sound making' and get all wound up at not being able to do what I want to do.
So how do you go about getting 'better'?
I was having some lessons with a work colleague where we were focussing on a song at a time (Canadee-i-o was the first one) and I really felt that I was progressing with that, but then, due to him coming back to work full-time and me being promoted to being his boss, we didn't really feel we could fit the lessons in anymore, and I've found myself going back to 'noodling' a lot. I'd really like to have continued those lessons and I've looked at other teachers but, as we are friends, I don't think I'll have the same rapport as I do with my colleague.
Sometimes I feel part of the problem is wanting to learn stuff that's beyond me, or listening to guitarists that are so advanced that it's impossible to put yourself near them (and some of the stuff that's posted on here falls in that category too!).
I think that I tend to learn best when I have something to focus on - when I was learning Canadee-i-o I also ended up writing a few pieces during my 'downtime' between practices and I felt they had something different as my mind had been so focussed on one thing that it was a relief to allow it to wander and come up with other stuff.
I've been looking at a few of the members youtube accounts here and it seems everyone has a good repertoire of complete songs and I'd like to get to that too, rather than lots of ideas...
I've just been listening to Keith's version of The Ringing Tune and went to Mark's video of it and I'm able to pick the beginning melody out pretty quick, so maybe I'll use that as a 'getting better' starting point...
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Post by ocarolan on Apr 28, 2013 14:07:03 GMT
"Better" is an interesting concept - good idea for thread there!
With concentrated effort on particular pieces I can eventually get to play them with fewer mistakes. Does "fewer mistakes" constitute "better"?
In a limited way, especially wrt mechanical technique, I suppose it does, but I've still a long way to go with the piece before I consider it "better". At this stage I'm still entirely wrapped up in getting most of the notes right, and even in the right order.
Once I "know" the piece well enough to produce a relatively fault-free version of it, then I am free to be able to start the process of playing it "better" - with more expression, tone variation, dynamic contrasts etc. ie I can focus less on the notes and more on the music. By "music" I mean not what is on a page, I mean what comes over to a listener. My learning process revolves around listening, and I regard that as far more important than notation, tab etc, though these do have their uses.
If the guitar and my efforts to subdue it inhibit the music, then I'm only playing the guitar as oppposed to the music.
With many pieces, no matter how long I've been playing them, I still end up with a mechanical reproduction of notes, mostly in the right order. With others, and particularly the pieces that move me and involve me , eventually (and it may take some years) I can play them so that the music and something of what it means to me comes across to a listener and makes a connection on a deeper level than "nice tune" or "not bad playing".
It's getting to that stage that I think of as getting "better", and I've no idea how it happens or doesn't happen for me!
And that's only in relation to one piece!
I believe that the things that have improved and still continue to improve not only my playing, but my musicianship as a whole, have largely come and still do, from playing with other people, and in particular those who play other instruments than guitars. Solo fingerstyle guitar can be a very selfish and introspective genre and I always find it valuable to have to make what I can do add to and complement the music of others. For me this is a long and gradual process, with no particular markers, but in retrospect the path is clearer and I can discern that I have in fact got "better" as a musician. It also throws into sharp focus how much further there is still to go!
Not entirely sure I've made sense here, but they were just some immediate thoughts from a lazy Sunday afternoon!
Keith
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Post by leoroberts on Apr 28, 2013 15:22:57 GMT
I certainly don't want to be (or be thought of as being) dismissive of others efforts or defeatist in my own but, for me, it's words that can be improved, not my playing. I'm very worried that I've reached my plateau and, whilst I occasionally and joyfully get a new lease of life after being able to try something new (Dave's CT for example) - I have resigned myself to not getting that much better at my technique. Clearly, this leaves me frustrated. I spent hours last week trying to nail down 'Leaving Stoer' but it just wasn't happening for me. I greatly admire those on here (and they are legion) who have that creative light touch allied to impressive technique that produces the spellbinding masterpieces we see in The Plucky Duck. I think I'll stick to words
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Post by markthomson on Apr 28, 2013 18:58:15 GMT
This is a great idea for a topic, and improving or lack of it is a regulalr source of frustration for me at times, as it will be for most guitarists. Personally, the biggest step was to start creating my own arrangements and compositions, which were terrible to start with, but I persevered and my success ratio has gradually got better over the years, though I still produce stinkers far too regularly. Other than that, my spurts of growth are usually associated with listening, watching or participating, be it finding a new CD to enthuse about that has new musical ideas to investigate or tunes/songs to arrange, or going to a gig, or mixing with other musicians. The final thing that springs to mind is the improvements that were brought about by recording myself, and listening critically to my own playing. My musicality and tone production improved a lot, as did my sense of timing, and it cleaned up my playing a fair bit too.
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Post by sigmadel on Apr 28, 2013 22:40:48 GMT
Jack i know exactly where your coming from . For me when i get frustrated that im not developing enough i try and keep my head down and keep playing when i often look back a few weeks or even days later i see myself in a new place and feel things have already improved . I used to put the guitar away and leave it for days , weeks at a time hoping next time would be better , this rarely works and i find the first instance to be better for me . I also find playing with someone helps as it gives you inspiration (if not a little competition) bouncing ideas between you can be great fun . Dont give up and ill bet your already getting better you maybe just dont realise it yet . Ive also heard a few brilliant guitarists lately that i know ill never emulate its about being comfortable doing what you do . Hope this makes sense Derek .
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Post by earwighoney on Apr 30, 2013 10:17:16 GMT
I read somewhere the only way to quantify improvement for playing guitar is to have a practise routine of playing the same things at the start of one's practise, so over time that can be considered, for example playing scales. I kind of agree with that in sorts.
When it comes to improving, I believe there are several factors to consider, which is just for playing the guitar not for writing words (that's something I have absolutely no idea about!) and these are just mine, I'm sure everyone has their own way of doing things.
1. Picking Hand This is quite a personal form, as everyone's picking hand techniques are slightly different. Some people use a pick, some fingerpick with a thumb and two fingers, other with fingerpicks. It depends how much one wants to learn, there are a lot of different picking hand techniques.
2. Fretting Hand To the words of Rev Gary Davis 'Your right hand is who you are, your left hand is what you learn'. Depending on what type of music one plays, there are particular scales/modes/chords favoured and it depends which ones are focussed on.
3. Form (Playing the songs of others/your own songs) Some are happy to just play the songs of others and for this it's more straightforward than for one's own compositions. The latter requires composite consideration which is something which is usually learned with time.
4. Listening Listening to one's own playing and the playing of others. What is competent playing for one's self and for others?
***
These are all factors which are considered instantaneously when picking up a guitar and playing a few notes, but I believe for improvement (which is generally slow enough to not be able to instantly observe) to be made it's paying close and regular attention to these factors.
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Apr 30, 2013 15:49:45 GMT
Good topic and some excellent, thoughful answers! If I only knew for sure what it was....I suspect it is hard work made up of focused practice, dedicated routine and high levels of concentration throughout (in the main) Anyway, I'll go back to reading these other great responses
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Post by peterh on May 6, 2013 8:05:34 GMT
Having played for 40 years with relatively small progress, actualy due to a dislike of metronomes, and a misplaced idea that some people are gifted, but having done some Open University work, I know that anyone can get better at anything. I realise that that maybe subjective... Anyway in an attempt to stay focused...there's a very useful article by a bloke called Tom Hess, that I found thru' Folk Radio Link - on this forum somewhere - on www. wholenote.com, called "Why Aren't you a Better Guitarist?" and this will be of use to all of us who flip from from piece to piece with gay abandon! Best regs Peter.
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Post by matt on May 17, 2013 11:02:51 GMT
I seem to go through periods of playing where I focus on something or a particular song a lot and can hear myself getting better as I progress... Then I go through weeks of noodling and general 'sound making' and get all wound up at not being able to do what I want to do. So how do you go about getting 'better'? I would like to encourage you to perform: try booking a slot at local open stage, say, two weeks in advance, and decide which pieces to play. Then play those pieces only (+ some warmups and technical exercises) for a week or so. If you like the feeling you got from performing, book the next slot...
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2013 0:49:08 GMT
Having played for 40 years with relatively small progress, actualy due to a dislike of metronomes, and a misplaced idea that some people are gifted, but having done some Open University work, I know that anyone can get better at anything. I realise that that maybe subjective... I do think some people are gifted, and that it can run in families. Psychological predispositions, configurations of musculature and vocal cords and so on can give massive headstarts to individuals. One example is Julian Lennon, who inherited his Dad's vocal cords and at least some of his songwriting ability. Sean Lennon, on the other hand, just got the money. That said, I think a deliberate practice regime without shying away from the technicalities, along with regular and attentive listening to good music will improve any musician over time.
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Post by peterh on May 18, 2013 7:44:41 GMT
Hello there,
just to add that this seems to be linked to the "does size matter" debate. I'm right over in the it doesn't corner: all of the things we tend to see as gifts or attributes can be improved and extended by practice, and focused determination to reach a goal. Thats' how tennis players , football players and musicians all do it. For the "great unfocused" like us, it's hard to realise , just how determined and how much of the right practice you need to do to be an athlete for example.
Tom hess covers all this stuff in his article in a quite definable way.
I 'm convinced this is a good thing and it makes everything possible, but sometimes in our lives we tend to get pigeonholed and unencouraged from pursuing possibilities. And there's always those blinkin distractions- beer, television, forums...
Hey ho Peter
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2013 10:58:48 GMT
Great thread guys, a great read. Anyone who has skipped to the last post I highly recommend you grab a coffee and read the whole thread.
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Post by Mike Floorstand on May 18, 2013 23:33:05 GMT
If you feel your mind wandering it could be your mind has had enough, for now, of the piece you are trying to learn. That's fine, your mind needs to digest the information before you feed it any more. The trick (not one I have necessarily mastered myself!) is not to let yourself get distracted by noodling at this point. It's the noodling that is frustrating, and distracts you from seeing the progress you are making. So do something else - a different tune, a different instrument, or something completely unrelated to music. Then later - minutes, hours or days later - go back to the original piece and see if you have made progress. Often, the brain has been processing the stuff you couldn't previously play, and found a way to play it a little better.
Concentrate on the bits you can't play, rather than the bits you can. Playing the bits you can play can be another form of noodling.
Finally, cultivate an unhealthy obsession with playing your instrument. This is necessary, and may even be sufficient, regardless of your level of congenital ability.
cheers
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 6:34:00 GMT
Mike, I have the nasty habit of noodling - for one thing I only get to attempt guitar playing in the evening when I have given all my strength to the family and my job. Despite playing the guit for over twenty-five years (including playing in a few bands) it feels I have nothing to show for it. You are right - progress can be slow or even non-existent if there is no structure. Peter, I am the type of person who flits from piece to piece with several compositions unfinished and myriads of tunes yet to be perfected. Time to read the Tom Hess article you mentioned. For anyone who wants to read it, it's here: www.wholenote.com/a156--Why-Aren-t-You-a-Better-Guitarist
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Post by Martin on May 19, 2013 9:37:22 GMT
That's a super article, Sam! Thanks for posting the link to it
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