|
Post by ajlucas on May 3, 2021 8:23:12 GMT
I know I don't visit here very often but I just wanted to chip in on the Spanish heel thing.
I use the Spanish heel way of putting a guitar together for a couple of reasons: firstly I initially learnt how to make classical guitars in the traditional way with the Spanish heel and when I made my first steel string acoustic I simply adapted the method I was already comfortable with (Ralph told me that he came to it in the same way) and secondly I think it makes structural sense to have the neck as a single piece of wood from nut to soundhole as it locks into the body. These days I extend the top of the internal part right up to the transverse bar above the soundhole to achieve this.
Looking at the histories of both classical and steel string acoustic guitars it seems that traditional Spanish classical guitar making comes from a long history of individual hand building and steel string guitar developed in more of a mass production setting where it makes absolute sense, from a production point of view, to make the neck and body separately and the join them at the end of the process.
|
|
|
Post by jonnymosco on May 9, 2021 9:51:37 GMT
It's interesting to see which luthiers use a bolt on neck, the Somogyi school for example.
Stradavari constructed the body and neck independently (guitars, violins, violas and cellos) and joined them with a nail - this was common at the time in Austria, Italy, Germany and France... the Spanish heel approach was the exception at this time.
I know Nigel Forster is not convinced the type of joint has an impact on the tone of the instrument, but Stefan Sobell believes it's a contributing factor.
Jonny
|
|
|
Post by robmc on May 9, 2021 10:57:05 GMT
I think some builders use different neck joints to suit models too, Jonny Kinkead uses a Spanish heel for little parlour model, mine has a dovetail, I think... Would be surprised if he hasn't used a bolt-on at some point.
Lovely looking guitar in the makings!
|
|
|
Post by malcolm on May 9, 2021 13:21:25 GMT
I'm with Nigel Forster on this one, as long as the neck and body are securely mated together, I can't see how the method of attachment can make much difference. One of my favourite steel string builders is Goodall and they use a bolt on neck.
|
|
|
Post by jangarrack on May 9, 2021 13:50:31 GMT
I stand to corrected if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Brooks have bolt on necks and I'm very happy with mine.
Whatever, it looks like it's going to be a wonderful guitar.
|
|
|
Post by andyhowell on May 9, 2021 14:18:10 GMT
I know Nigel Forster is not convinced the type of joint has an impact on the tone of the instrument, but Stefan Sobell believes it's a contributing factor. Jonny
That's why it'sall so interesting. Luthiers seem to aim for a similar end result using different fprmulations!
|
|
|
Post by jonnymosco on May 9, 2021 20:52:00 GMT
Ralph told me it was too late to nail the neck on!
|
|
|
Post by geddarby on May 9, 2021 21:08:07 GMT
jonnymosco the guitar in the picture is the one that my wife wants me to play
|
|
|
Post by andyhowell on May 10, 2021 9:15:14 GMT
Just to add to the debate — this is from Richard Hoover at Santa Cruz Guitars:
The Dovetail joint is an integral connection between the neck and the body. The counterpart is a bolt-on neck. Both function mechanically well – bolt-on is easier, advantageous to the manufacturer as it requires less skill, is cheap to do and takes less time. They say it is a great advantage to the end user as the neck can come off quickly for repair, and that you have to rip a guitar apart to take off a dovetail jointed neck, but this is not so. If a dovetail neck wasn’t superior sonically, we wouldn’t do it. We voice and tune our instruments to be very responsive. The dovetail jointed neck allows us subtle degrees of control to give the guitar the optimal presence to sound its best… it’s like a laser beam as opposed to a flood light, or clean, clear and precise vs. open, airy, friendly and blended. A trick that we use to control getting these different sounds is to either allow vibration from the strings/body to chimney up the neck or to block it. This is done by manipulating the density of the wood in the neck, using heavier gears or a larger peghead, which blocks vibration up the neck and gives guitar more focus. The opposite is a slotted peghead, light open back gears and less dense wood in the neck; this allows vibration and gives a more open, airy ambience. The Dovetail neck facilitates that, allows focus or vibration freely, whereas the bolt-on neck is already adding mass in addition to the wood and doesn’t allow for this trick. By design, the dovetail joint is accessible – simply by removing the fret above the body joint towards the sound hole, we can drill a hole and inject steam into it, which melts the glue and allows for easy removal for repair. A dovetail neck, by nature, is strong enough to hold string tension… just a little glue is used, so facilitating the repair is a straightforward process. We take e
|
|
|
Post by malcolm on May 10, 2021 13:19:48 GMT
Just to add to the debate — this is from Richard Hoover at Santa Cruz Guitars: The Dovetail joint is an integral connection between the neck and the body. The counterpart is a bolt-on neck. Both function mechanically well – bolt-on is easier, advantageous to the manufacturer as it requires less skill, is cheap to do and takes less time. They say it is a great advantage to the end user as the neck can come off quickly for repair, and that you have to rip a guitar apart to take off a dovetail jointed neck, but this is not so. If a dovetail neck wasn’t superior sonically, we wouldn’t do it. We voice and tune our instruments to be very responsive. The dovetail jointed neck allows us subtle degrees of control to give the guitar the optimal presence to sound its best… it’s like a laser beam as opposed to a flood light, or clean, clear and precise vs. open, airy, friendly and blended. A trick that we use to control getting these different sounds is to either allow vibration from the strings/body to chimney up the neck or to block it. This is done by manipulating the density of the wood in the neck, using heavier gears or a larger peghead, which blocks vibration up the neck and gives guitar more focus. The opposite is a slotted peghead, light open back gears and less dense wood in the neck; this allows vibration and gives a more open, airy ambience. The Dovetail neck facilitates that, allows focus or vibration freely, whereas the bolt-on neck is already adding mass in addition to the wood and doesn’t allow for this trick. By design, the dovetail joint is accessible – simply by removing the fret above the body joint towards the sound hole, we can drill a hole and inject steam into it, which melts the glue and allows for easy removal for repair. A dovetail neck, by nature, is strong enough to hold string tension… just a little glue is used, so facilitating the repair is a straightforward process. We take e I honestly think this is just "marketing talk." They've decided to make their guitars that way and now they have to convince you that it is the best way. Another highly regarded luthier like Goodall or Nigel Forster could give an equally convincing explanation as to why they use a bolt on neck joint. No one is being objective here, and if the guitar sounded good it wouldn't make any difference to me how the neck was attached.
|
|
|
Post by jonnymosco on May 14, 2021 18:46:18 GMT
Just spotted this... don't takes Es! What was following? Jonny
|
|
|
Post by jonnymosco on May 16, 2021 16:00:46 GMT
Binding, perfling, backstrip and end graft done. Fingerboard looked a bit naked without position markers and they sort of link up with the headstock. Off to be lacquered this week... very close now. Jonny
|
|
andrewjw
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,737
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":""}
|
Post by andrewjw on May 16, 2021 17:04:34 GMT
Very , very classy!
|
|
|
Post by robmc on May 16, 2021 17:12:19 GMT
Just spotted this... don't takes Es! What was following? Jonny A massive whitey... Andy's still recovering. The guitar looks great!
|
|
leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 24,580
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
|
Post by leoroberts on May 16, 2021 22:05:06 GMT
Just spotted this... don't takes Es! What was following? Jonny A massive whitey... Andy's still recovering. The guitar looks great! Presumably followed by some wine. Keep on truckin'
|
|