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Post by fatfingerjohn on Oct 8, 2013 19:52:28 GMT
I like just about every kind of music; classical, modern, traditional, fast, slow, etc; Ok, some better than others. But I have always hated Jazz; and unlike some things which grow on you with age, this one doesn't. Here's a couple of quotes that sum it up for me,
'You can't always write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say, so sometimes you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream'.
Frank Zappa
'Jazz is the last refuge of the untalented. Jazz musicians enjoy themselves more than anyone listening to them does'.
Tony Wilson
A night at Ronnie Scotts (if its still going) is my idea of hell.
Its my loss that I can't get it; it just sounds painful.
So, come on all you jazz players, put me in touch with some pieces of guitar music that you think will change my mind! I will try to be open-minded (hard at my age ........)
FFJ
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Post by earwighoney on Oct 8, 2013 20:05:06 GMT
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Welshruss
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Post by Welshruss on Oct 8, 2013 21:08:44 GMT
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alig
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Post by alig on Oct 8, 2013 21:09:50 GMT
Clap your ears and eyes round some Martin Taylor. I'm at work now and PC's not plating so I can't upload links. However, look for The Dolphin, I Got Rhythm or Georgia.
Hear what you say about jazz. I'm a bit picky about it myself but I suppose that's true of all the music I like.
Got a Pat Metheny CD I love - does that come under the heading of Jazz? That's a whole other can of worms...
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 8, 2013 21:22:52 GMT
I'll second alig's Martin Taylor recommendation, but I'm a bit iffy about most types of jazz too. Probably wouldn't deliberately listen to any at home, though did enjoy seeing Martin Taylor performing live some years ago, probably because he was playing with Stephane Grappelli though! If you're talking outside guitar specific music I do quite enjoy trad jazz in small doses for its exhuberance and sense of fun which seems to me to be lacking in many other areas of jazz which seem too "Mmmm, nice" and "cool" to be much fun. Like FFJ, I'm open to being educated though... Keith
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 8:02:56 GMT
Tony Wilson deserved a kicking in the head for that pathetic statement: just enough of a kicking to shake up its limited content. As for Frank, while he used some great jazz musicians (including Duke Ellington alumnus Paul Gonsalves) he was really a synthesist, drawing together so many elements from twentieth century classical music, blues and rock as well as jazz that his music could become a jagged and often unattractive puzzle - probably deliberately so. I have to say upfront that I love jazz. When other forms of music start to sound trite, jazz can still do it for me, and it creates emotional and even physical responses that no other genre can. My musical education was something of a fluke though. I developed a love of the improvisational and multi-textured music of the Grateful Dead early on, such that when I later blagged my way into a pro band with a jazz bent and my education began in earnest, basic principles like exploring chords and their colours and floating scales on a progression were already familiar. The one thing I learned above all is that a good jazz solo is a journey through any and all fundamentals of music - though one that doesn't necessarily have to start at the beginning! The great improvisers can swoop, climb, muse and reflect, tease a tune out of shape and then gently put it back together again, surround and suggest a melody, lead you astray from it until you ache for resolution, can draw shimmering moments of delight or deep, desperate sadness in the colours of a chord. I'm not saying that I think you should start from the Dead, by the way - that was just something that happened to me - but I have to say I wouldn't try to get into jazz by looking at guitar as the principle platform either. It's a bit of a Cinderella instrument in the music, and because of its association with particular blues forms and rock it comes with its own set of expectations. Instead, I'd start by looking into two of the genre's greatest exponents, Duke Ellington and Miles Davis. Duke lived, played and wrote through several eras of jazz, always moving with the times, and he composed many of its greatest tunes and explored its deepest recesses. Miles actually the music apart, reaching to the essence of the blues and modality (as the Duke said, "It all comes back to the blues in the end.") and then taped a jet engine on the back and took it to places it had never been before. Two great starting points: Duke Ellington: Masterpieces
Miles Davis: Kind Of BlueAnd there's always Louis, the genius who kicked it off. The scat vocal and horn solo in these bare three minutes are masterclasses in jazz improvisation, turning a silly little tune into something far greater than it had ever been before. Sorry if this got a bit over the top. I quite like this music, you see.
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Post by peterh on Oct 9, 2013 9:37:35 GMT
I have to say that I don't listen to much jazz as such, pardon the pun, and would say that I prefer folk and blues. BUT, but I've always felt comfortable listening to Pentangle, for example as a band and as individuals. Scott Joplin's music was also "a blend of jazz and classical" to quote Spencer Dodge, and most people seem to like that. I like all the above examples too, and sometimes I listen to the Radio 2 show at 8pm on Tuesdays, and that covers loads of different styles, and shows how much potential listening there is! Maybe that's what folk and the blues means....
kind regs Peter
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Post by alig on Oct 9, 2013 11:32:21 GMT
Don't like labels. Think they're disruptive. It's all music - right...?
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Post by peterh on Oct 9, 2013 13:36:48 GMT
I think that' s right, and you can be put off stuff cos of the label, and it strikes me that everything is influenced by... or because of ... regs Peter
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Post by Martin on Oct 9, 2013 13:43:28 GMT
I like your thinking Peter
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 13:46:28 GMT
Don't like labels. Think they're disruptive. It's all music - right...? Wrong. That's a bit like saying Rubens and Jackson Pollock were thinking and approaching work the same way because they both worked with paint. Besides, labels are useful. When I go into HMV my first stop is the conjoined ghettos devoted to jazz, folk, country and classical. I know there's no point in me looking at, say, the drum and bass section, because that stuff has never spoken to me.
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Oct 9, 2013 14:00:49 GMT
Thanks for your input and suggestions everyone. The benefit of being old and retired is that I've had time to have a good look at them. But first, the 'label' question. Whilst I agree that a label can cause loads of problems as there are so many variations and overlaps, its pretty hard to have a conversation without trying to describe what you're talking about; thus some sort of 'label', whether its folk, rock, blues, skiffle, punk, rap or whatever is the only way I know to give an idea of what it is; yes its all music but how else do you describe the leanings and differentiate? My shame is that I'm not a lot further forward from looking at the examples so far. I loved 'walking decays' passion and you clearly have parts of the brain and ear that I don't. I also take the point that the guitar may not be the best instrument to get the best musically out of 'jazz'. I can quite enjoy some examples of Louis A and to a degree Miles Davis (in very small doses); the Duke E example I listened to (Sophisticated Lady) I found deadly I'm afraid. Some of the others, particularly where they strayed closer to the more mainstream melodic side e.g. John Smith 'The Maid ....' were O'Kish to my ear but I wouldn't revisit them; probably the reason they were OK was because they weren't very 'Jazzy'. I'm sorry, I found the Eric Skye background stuff grating; a few bits of Martin Taylor were bearable but the 'jazz' element didn't sit comfortably. Like Keith I can take a bit of Trad Jazz (oops, another label) but probably liked it more 30 years ago; the fun element and liveliness makes it listenable occasionally in small doses. Any other suggestions are very welcome; otherwise I might just have to accept its not for me; which I accept is my loss. Now, to me, a lot of opera ....(better not go there either...) Thanks everyone. FFJ
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Post by Martin on Oct 9, 2013 14:16:12 GMT
This short clip seems to reflect your general feeling for jazz, John - you're not alone, it seems
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Post by alig on Oct 9, 2013 18:25:56 GMT
Don't like labels. Think they're disruptive. It's all music - right...? Wrong. That's a bit like saying Rubens and Jackson Pollock were thinking and approaching work the same way because they both worked with paint. Besides, labels are useful. When I go into HMV my first stop is the conjoined ghettos devoted to jazz, folk, country and classical. I know there's no point in me looking at, say, the drum and bass section, because that stuff has never spoken to me. Hmm. I admire your passion, but please don't tell me I'm wrong because you disagree; tell me you disagree. To pursue your analogy - it's more like saying Reubens and Pollock were painters. Both with something to say and each going about it in their own way. What's a musician's medium - black dots on a page or the emotions they evoke? I agree that labels are useful - to an extent - however, they can be limiting. I try to keep an open mind with regard to music, although I find it more and more difficult to be surprised by something fresh. Each to his own.
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Post by scripsit on Oct 9, 2013 22:36:41 GMT
I have the problem that I think was originally described by the writer Evelyn Waugh, in that as I get older it is easier to say what I dislike rather than talk about what I like.
I find it more and more convenient to ignore the music that doesn't speak to me, and no longer make attempts to connect to it because it's expected, or comes from a genre that otherwise interests me.
One advantage of this is that you are free to indulge your passion for the music that does work for you on a personal level. And, I haven't found any narrowing of horizons because of this attitude: on the contrary, I'm constantly stumbling across music and performances that I had never heard of (thank you internet and forums).
There are entire genres that don't mean much to me. I won't be rude and list them, but I find it best just to drop out of the conversation when people enthuse about them. What I find intriguing is that most people, upon finding out that you like and try to play music, automatically assume you are passionate about the same things that influenced them. I have found a variety of non-committal grunts useful in these situations.
I do love most baroque small ensemble music, baroque and romantic era opera, some early romantic era instrumental, pre-war blues, a very small sample of UK progressive folk (thank you Nick Drake!), acoustic and Band era Bob Dylan, some classical guitar, mainly British and Australian blues-rock and some of the more recent 'fingerstyle guitar'.
I'm familiar with lots of other music through trying it out (I think I've heard all of the suggestions made in this thread), but would rarely feel like sitting down to listen to any of this stuff. OK, I'll break my own rule: I detest bebop and the stuff that it inspired.
Life's too short to worry about what you're missing out on, as long as you have stuff that does interest you.
Kym
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