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Post by earwighoney on Mar 6, 2013 16:11:42 GMT
To the forum that shall never be named... It has been devoured by the abyss, a virtual internet sinkhole.The glue thing which you did write I remember was very informative indeed. I saw somewhere that Gibson advertised for their new J-35 that it will have Hot Hide Glue for the neck joint, which I imagine is possibly the most common long term guitar fix (for a neck set). Something for types of glue it'd be fascinating if for tone there could ever be a test to examine exactly the same guitar built with different types of glue for construction, and finishes as well (eg nitro, French Polish, Oil)... I'm rambling on. I don't know if this is a valid point but will you be writing about 'voicing' of the guitar? Not sure if I have written that accurately but say for guitars which for example all look the same a Sitka Spruce/East Indian Rosewood OM, some eg the Martin OM-28 has a 'vintage' tone, while the Santa Cruz counterpart has a more 'modern' tone. I always used to think the tone of a guitar was down to the physical variables, ie the materials used to construct it but the more guitars I play the more I believe a massive component is down to the luthier. Also Dave, have you seen this chap's guitars? I might have already posted his instruments, but it's quite nice to see a little recognition for vintage guitar models that aren't Martins.
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Post by davewhite on Mar 6, 2013 17:10:25 GMT
EWH, Yes I know about Anthony Klassen and there's also Frank Montuoro who restores Larson instruments and makes copies. The Larson brothers are great heroes of mine and I think their innovative influence on the development of the modern American steel string guitar is sadly lost in all of the Martin and Gibson folklore and they deserve more recognition. I will be talking about "voicing" in terms of what I do with my instruments. The sound comes from the luthier, the materials he/she chooses and what they do with those materials. In my case I'm not the equivalent of a Hong Kong tailor that turns out sound copies of others instruments but am shaping my own signature sound. I will be writing about finishes too - choice and application is much more important for classical guitars with their lower string energy but I can't spoil the suspense now
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Post by davewhite on Apr 2, 2013 13:21:27 GMT
4. Defining MomentsThe next logical step after body size and shape is to talk about bracing designs and principles but first a little digression is in order and I’ll talk about some “defining moments” that have influenced my building techniques. Changes in my designs and techniques have mostly been an evolution as I learned more but there have been five “defining moments”. I’ve never glued the fingerboard extension to the guitar top as it never made any sense to me. Then I learned about how American builders Mike Doolin, Rick Turner and Howard Klepper were using “flying-buttress” braces inside the guitar body to deal with the string tension forces on the neck-block enabling a free floating fingerboard and freeing the upper bout area of the top to become a tonal rather than a structural area. Many builders dismiss the top’s upper bout area as having no role to play tonally – they couldn’t be more wrong. Using carbon-fibre flying buttresses, the rim-set becomes incredibly stiff and can be used as an efficient way to help support the string forces of the neck rather than using a heavily braced area of the top’s upper bout. The next “defining moment” was when I changed my neck design so that the neck shaft runs all of the way up to the upper transverse brace on the top and then added a final “tweak” on my neck/neckblock design based on the system developed by my friend and fellow UK builder Colin Symonds. This combined with using two carbon fibre bars in the neck either side of the truss road gives a similarity of tone as you play notes up the neck and across strings and capo up the neck and also eliminates the neck/body join “hump” problem. The third “defining moment” came when I had the good fortune to read about the American Scott van Linge’s work and theories about top bracing and had a long exchange of e-mails with him. Scott “annoys” many builders due to the “scientific theory” he has put around his methods. I don’t agree with his theory but this doesn’t matter as his methods work for me and turned on the light for me on to how to “voice” my tops and backs to give the sound I want and changing my bracing profile to “tapered”. For this I am eternally grateful to Scott. The fourth “defining moment” was using side sound ports. My instruments have always been loud and project well but this is not always good news for the player who would like to hear what the audience hears. Side sound ports let this happen without compromising the forward projection and the results for drilling a small hole in the guitars side are fabulous. They act as a personal “monitor” to the player giving more feedback and the impact on the forwards projection and sound is minimal – in fact I believe that the extra port helps the top move in a more interesting and free manner. The fifth “moment” was discovering multi-scale instruments. I came to multi-scale by a strange route. I play a lot in dropped/modal tunings and this is where I want my instruments to thrive. I had in my head the mantra that you needed longer scale lengths to do this to give better string tension as you tune down. Then inspired by American builder John How I made a ladder braced guitar with a short scale length – 630mm. I was surprised firstly by how sweet the trebles sounded and secondly by how well the instrument played in DADGAD with light strings. So in the quest for the ideal DADGAD guitar I decided on a 630-660 multi-scale length giving sweet trebles and more tension on the bass strings. This string tension balance plus the fact that the slanted frets suit the natural angle of the fretting hand are the main contributions to my instruments, even if you play in standard tuning. The other area where multi-scale make great sense is Harp guitars where the transition to lower sub-bass strings calls for longer scale length string by string. With a multi-scale this means that the bridge design and the way it drives the top is much more efficient. I’ve done this now on one harp guitar and a Tarropatch Harp Ukulele. The same principles would apply to Baritones. I’m a believer.
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Post by Phil Taylor on Apr 2, 2013 19:09:54 GMT
Only just found this thread Dave and it's really comprehensive - you could do a book!! Can I ask a question please - you mention that an increase in depth increases the bass. The Santa Cruz Eric Skye Signature 00 has an additional depth of .06" over their standard 00 model which seems a small change and Eric does say it's for increased bass response. Difficult because there are lots of parameters such as different woods etc but would this really be noticable in a small 00 size guitar? Cheers Phil
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Post by davewhite on Apr 2, 2013 19:26:33 GMT
Phil, I'm glad that you are enjoying the Articles - who knows they may be a book one day 0.06" is 1.5mm and I'd say that would have minimal impact but every little helps. I suspect that there are other changes from their standard model going on.
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Post by leoroberts on Apr 3, 2013 6:19:36 GMT
I love the flying buttress construction. It is interesting (to me!) that when people take a proper look at Sybil they invariably point out at least one of your 'defining moments' - they immediately spot the soundport and multiscale, of course, and I have been able to give my own explanations of theses features, but those who take a really good look also spot the flying buttresses and the floating soundboard. In the past I've waffled as to why these are here - I now have a much more comprehensive answer that I can give which might actually make it sound as though I know what I'm taking about!
The fact that I actually understand everything you've said is as much a testament to your educational skills as Sybil is to you your luthier ability, Dave! Many thanks.
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Post by davewhite on Apr 3, 2013 8:52:12 GMT
Leo - thanks. Maybe you should write a "De Faoite Educational" song for me
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Post by davewhite on Apr 3, 2013 11:46:57 GMT
Leo - thanks. Maybe you should write a "De Faoite Educational" song for me Well bloomin' eck he did And he discovered my little secret. Thank you Leo: "Luthiers are Aliens"
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Post by ocarolan on Apr 3, 2013 11:50:22 GMT
Continuing to enjoy these articles very much Dave - thanks for putting your thoughts together in such a readable and interesting way.
The not-glued fingerboard is something I'm surprised more makers don't do. Having seen you whip necks on and off in seconds, the time saving in that has to be a valuable asset, not to mention the stability benefits when combined with the flying buttress rods.
It's certainly true that your guitars work very well played up the neck and/or in high capo positions though didn't realise that your neck design is a contributory factor to that.
As to the bracing, "scientific theory" etc - glad you seem to have found something that works for you whether or not it "should" or "shouldn't"!! It obviously does, and I'm even more glad your leave the (pseudo-) scientific waffle to others!
I'm a big fan of soundports since getting acquanted with your instruments. Not quite a big enough fan to contemplate modifying my other instruments yet though! I might try to persuade Glyn to let me have a go at adding a soundport to his ancient Simon & Patrick dread though - he's already nearly achieved on, though in the wrong place, buby dropping a large PA speaker on it!
The multi-scale thing isn't something that I particularly feel the need of, though I can acknowledge its potential advantages for those who do the dropped tunings thing a lot. It bugs me when these kind of instruments are referred to, even by some prominent makers, as "fan-fretted". I can understand why, but it misses the point completely.
I'm wondering what else is lined up for these articles - anything about oddments like intonation, bridges, nuts and stuff? Hope so!
Keith
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Post by ocarolan on Apr 3, 2013 11:53:43 GMT
Great song Leo - some lovely phrasing and rhyming as ever! A CD of this song should be added to the case candy with Dave's guitars from now on! Keith
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Post by davewhite on Apr 3, 2013 12:03:06 GMT
Keith, Thanks. I've put carbon fibre rods in my necks ever since I started building in 2002 as they alter the neck's main resonant frequency and eliminate dead spots helping with an even tone and sustain (I discovered this in the final Intonation Article of Mike Doolin) plus they add a little extra stiffness. Having more "wood" under the fingerboard does helps in a similar way. A lot of guitars I've played sound great open but seem to die a little when they are capoed which is not good for me as I use capos a lot. I also think that the contribution of the guitar's upper bout comes into it's own here with the higher notes and higher harmonics that are more important in the mix as you capo up. These Articles are meant to be "The Full Monty" so all of those things will end up getting covered if I make it to the end
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Post by brianr2 on Apr 3, 2013 14:39:55 GMT
Dave, I should to add my appreciation of your articles, and your generosity in sharing your knowledge, wisdom and artistry. These nuggets, and your excellent photographs would, as others have suggested, make a superb book. I would certainly buy it!
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Post by Phil Taylor on Apr 8, 2013 12:40:44 GMT
4. Defining MomentsThe fourth “defining moment” was using side sound ports. My instruments have always been loud and project well but this is not always good news for the player who would like to hear what the audience hears. Side sound ports let this happen without compromising the forward projection and the results for drilling a small hole in the guitars side are fabulous. They act as a personal “monitor” to the player giving more feedback and the impact on the forwards projection and sound is minimal – in fact I believe that the extra port helps the top move in a more interesting and free manner. Dave - have you done any experimenting re sizes of sound ports and what is the minimum and maximum sizes you would use? I suppose the smaller they are the less effective and the larger they go they become unsightly and give construction issues - does body size effect the sound port size in terms of effectiveness? Cheers Phil
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Post by davewhite on Apr 8, 2013 13:05:54 GMT
4. Defining MomentsThe fourth “defining moment” was using side sound ports. My instruments have always been loud and project well but this is not always good news for the player who would like to hear what the audience hears. Side sound ports let this happen without compromising the forward projection and the results for drilling a small hole in the guitars side are fabulous. They act as a personal “monitor” to the player giving more feedback and the impact on the forwards projection and sound is minimal – in fact I believe that the extra port helps the top move in a more interesting and free manner. Dave - have you done any experimenting re sizes of sound ports and what is the minimum and maximum sizes you would use? I suppose the smaller they are the less effective and the larger they go they become unsightly and give construction issues - does body size effect the sound port size in terms of effectiveness? Cheers Phil Phil, I've not done lots of experimentation but have read the work that others have done - in particular Alan Carruth did with his "corked" guitar. The side port doesn't need to be very big to work as a monitor and improve the overall "breathing" of the instrument and about the size and shape of a small egg on the bass side upper bout works well for me. I do also make "portholes" that are round and about the same surface area. Here's a few pictures: This is a "porthole" on the guitar I made for Berd that I also made a "bung" for: Here's an ebony "porthole" on Joe's mandolin: And here's an egg shaped one on the Road Trip II guitar FI: As far as body size goes I've used them effectively on instruments from mandolins up to Baritone harp guitars. The only instruments where I haven't found them necessary are the few Concert sized ukuleles I've made.
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Post by Martin on Sept 12, 2016 12:59:33 GMT
I've really enjoyed re-reading these articles and discussions. And drooling over the lovely piccies
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