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Post by creamburmese on Sept 30, 2014 18:22:05 GMT
I guess this really applies mostly to people who are still on the steep part of the learning curve, like me, but any insight from you more experienced players would be appreciated. I had the lesson from he** this week. Been working on a piece called "Rose in the Garden" which is fairly straightforward arpeggios - requires a lot of tone/tempo control and a bit of finger contortion, but nothing really hard. Been working on it for 2 weeks now, thought I was doing OK - could get through it at home, mostly without major mistakes. Well I go to my lesson and I couldn't even play the first couple of bars - the easiest bits! Started off with stupid mistakes I hadn't made before and deteriorated from there. The more I tried, the worse it got, and I must have restarted 6 or 7 times without success, culminating in the shakes setting in and I had to actually give up... I know it's all mind over matter (and it's all in my head too ) but honestly - has anyone experienced this and found a means to get it back together? I have the most understanding teacher and I"m scarcely a spring chicken, so I ought to be able to deal with this. And to make matters worse, I picked up the guitar today and it was still bad... so I put it right back down and I'm taking the day off. But I'm sitting worrying about it.....
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Sept 30, 2014 18:43:15 GMT
I have the same difficulties In fact I was criticised at the weekend for just quitting near the beginning of a song because I lost it, but I honestly had no confidence in being able to perform it after going blank, and yet I can do it no problem when just for myself. You're not alone
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Post by Mike Floorstand on Sept 30, 2014 19:15:32 GMT
I played a tune at a session last night, totally messed it up in ways I've never messed it up before. In that particular situation I think (possibly naively) the trick is to persevere, keep the rhythm even if the notes are wrong, and hope no one notices. In a session you typically play the tune three times so you have several goes to get it right.
The way to improve is just to keep practising. Do you want to get better?
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Post by Akquarius on Sept 30, 2014 19:19:22 GMT
This sounds very familiar. And I think I finally know what's behind it. I had a nice conversation with a guitar teacher who explained a few things to me that really helped me a lot. It's a question of concentration. And I don't mean "not enough", but "too much". I'll try to explain: when you learn a tune, a scale or whatever, your nervous system does the biggest part. After a while you are able to play it without thinking. And that's the point. Once your fingers know ehat to do, you don't need to think, because your fingers/hands have learned the chords, the picking. Example: when you have learned a picking pattern, you don't actually try to control the movement of your fingers, do you? Because the moment you try to do this, you mess up everything. So when you finally learned to play the tune, it's the nervous system that tells your hand what to do, not your brain. Then comes the moment of performance. You use your brain to concentrate on the tune - and you blow it. And the harder you concentrate, the more desastrous the whole thing gets until you are completely stuck. There's only one way to get out of this: clear your mind, don't concentrate and let your fingers do the job. This is exactly what happened to me when I played our Plucky Dip last weekend. I was nervous (I always am at these occasions ), concentrated too hard and got stuck. So I tried to clear my mind and was finally able to go on and finish the tune. This whole thing is a bit complicated and therefore not easy to explain, especially with my limited english vocabulary. I do hope, though, that it sounds a least a bit reasonable. Oh, I forgot: this guitar teacher I mentioned does the teaching as a hobby. He earns his money as a neurosurgeon.
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Post by creamburmese on Sept 30, 2014 20:24:49 GMT
Wow Bernd - I think you nailed it - I truly do concentrate really hard and also think I should just try to do it a little better for my teacher. And of course after messing it up I concentrate even harder in an attempt to get it right. Which makes it worse, of course. But if the solution is just to clear your mind and not think about it - how do you make THAT happen? It's like -not- looking at the elephant in the room when you know it's there. Does your neurosurgeon /guitar teacher have any tricks for -not- concentrating? ps I hadn't noticed any limited English skills ...
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Post by jonnymosco on Sept 30, 2014 20:41:54 GMT
I think you have a valid point Bernd, muscle memory is important, but you also need to know it 'mentally' so you can pick it up when your fingers fail - Anthony Glise in his book 'Classical Guitar Pedagogy' explains it really well.
Creamburmese, the piece seems to be in your short-term memory as you've played it for two weeks - for it to be well and truly placed in your long-term memory without mistakes you'd need to play it for months. Bream in the book "Life on the Road" wouldn't perform a piece (from memory) until he's practised it for over a year. Takes me years to get a piece off without too many lapses of memory or mistakes, don't worry at all, it's normal.
Relaxing is also key though, if you are stressed over fingering then everything crumbles - no one cares about confident mistakes, just gloss over them if possible. (It also helps to reinforce fingering issues with exercises so that a performance piece is more comfortable for you and not beyond your reach.)
Good luck with it.
Jonny
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Post by vikingblues on Sept 30, 2014 22:23:08 GMT
I'm glad to see there seems to be the possibility of solutions as I suffer this sort of thing.
The expression "the more I tried the worse it got" sounded horribly familiar.
But as to my replying to your question "how do you deal with it when it all goes wrong" .... I can't really say because effectively I don't deal with it. I might play something else instead, or do something totally different. Very defeatist I'll admit.
Concentration is a strange thing - what seems best with guitar for me seems to involve no analytical thought, but just an internal focus with hopefully no stray thoughts creeping in - especially thoughts about the difficult part of a piece that's just arriving.
Practice does help of course, but even a world class golfer can end up with a 10 at a par 3 when their confidence unravels and the stress builds as mistake follows mistake.
Also if my concentration is poor when I'm practising and I hit a major problem with a part of the music, I'm a bit reluctant to immediately start to try to practise my way through the difficult bit, as there is the danger of repeating the mistakes and building that bad playing into muscle memory.
The more stressful the situation then the more those stray thoughts in my head multiply - so if there's a crowded room there's such a clamour from my stray thoughts I needn't bother trying to play at all. I can really identify with Martins post.
Also I've noticed that mistakes litter my playing much more in the late afternoon and the evening, while the morning is much better. I think the concentration starts to drift when my alert feeling early in the day starts to melt away. Not a great scenario for lessons when I had them, as invariably they were by necessity of an evening. Also not a great scenario for things like music clubs which are usually evenings.
Mark
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Post by ocarolan on Sept 30, 2014 22:58:40 GMT
Keep on keeping on. It affects every one of us. Try to treat it lightly - there'll be plenty more times when it happens. It really isn't the end of the world. Remember all the things you did right. Keep on keeping on.
As well as practising on the real guitar, try practising "in your head" as well - imagine you are playing - watch your imagined fingers and "hear" the results. The more you do this, the easier you will find it - I find it really helps.
Keith
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 1, 2014 7:24:28 GMT
I have the same difficulties In fact I was criticised at the weekend for just quitting near the beginning of a song because I lost it, but I honestly had no confidence in being able to perform it after going blank, and yet I can do it no problem when just for myself. Criticised? Surely not .... laughed at, ridiculed and mocked almost certainly, Martin, but criticised? I think, creamburmese, it just goes to show the added tension that an audience adds - whether it's a couple of thousand at the Albert Hall, 25 folk at the local club or just your tutor. You're right, it's a 'head' thing and there's no quick fix, I reckon. The more you play in front of others, the less it bothers you, the fewer freezes you have. Akquarius' advice of clearing your head is spot on, in my opinion. Maybe it's a case of closing your eyes and letting your fingers do what is becoming natural to them. N.B. This is just a theory as I never play in front of other people
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Oct 1, 2014 7:26:24 GMT
A subject very close to my heart. I could ramble about this for hours as it drives me mad; not specifically playing in front of a teacher, but playing in front of others full stop. 40 years ago I used to be able to do it OKish; nervous but got through; largely I think because I played a lot with a mate so wasn't the sole focus. So, even managed a 2 hour gig once! After a long break, started playing again and the nerves were just dreadful. Couldn't play in front of anyone except the dog without forgetting the simplest words (even the first line) and hands shaking like a jelly. It was even worse if I knew I was going to be performing shortly, just built up in my mind to hardly being able to play at all. I will play a song well 10 times at home an hour before a folk club; get up at the folk club and go to pieces. It's still a big issue for me and I haven't the solution for you as I can't crack it myself. The only things I can suggest might help a bit (not necessarily with your teacher, but with an audience of any sort)
--keep trying, it does get better with experience (he says, not following his own advice!) --avoid the hard bits; if I play 'out' I simply miss out any twiddly bits or difficult pieces; frustrating because you want to expand the performance but if the job is initially 'to get through it' make it easy on yourself --if singing, have the words in front of you; I can't remember words at all now so don't put this extra pressure on yourself. This may be naff, or even unacceptable if you're being paid (not me!) but other times OK. (An orchestra always has the music!) --try to REALLY believe that the audience (whether 1 or 100) is on your side and want you to do well --you will notice mistakes much more than they do; a few weeks ago I was into the chorus of a second number and forgot that I hadn't retuned from drop D to standard. I stopped and started again after explaining my mistake; most people said they hadn't even noticed! --I'm always better after the first number, so try to get warmed up --and keep trying. --and keep trying again
This may not be a good answer to your specific 'teacher' question, but may help a bit I hope. Wish I could follow my own advice though ...
Good luck from a fellow sufferer
John
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Post by Martin on Oct 1, 2014 7:43:45 GMT
I have the same difficulties In fact I was criticised at the weekend for just quitting near the beginning of a song because I lost it, but I honestly had no confidence in being able to perform it after going blank, and yet I can do it no problem when just for myself. Criticised? Surely not... No, not really. Poor choice of word there. I mean my quitting the song was met with surprise all round, and yet without confidence to continue I had no choice
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 1, 2014 8:23:21 GMT
....... This is just a theory as I never play in front of other people Liar, liar, pants on fire! Keith
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 1, 2014 8:37:43 GMT
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Post by thejamsinger on Oct 1, 2014 9:11:53 GMT
As others have said just keep on going. I've messed up plenty of times. Examples such as getting to the third verse of a song and can't remember the first line so sing the first verse again, or singing the chorus at the wrong time. I have even made up words when I couldn't remember the original. The important thing to remember is try not to stop, just keep getting back on the horse so to speak.
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Post by Martin on Oct 1, 2014 9:31:01 GMT
Alternatively....
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