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Post by andyhowell on Oct 7, 2014 16:17:13 GMT
I certainly won't be accusing Paul of writer's block — stream of consciousness maybe!
There is a lot in here. The music scene is changing dramatically hence the way big names now make money out of touring when in the past they made it out of album sales.
I shall restrict myself to the Open Mic bit. There are open mics and open mics but I think I find the same problems with them that Paul does. I'm thinking of spots that are just too short, PA systems that are either not needed or operated very badly. When I ran a club I tried to avoid this format while still offering people the chance to drop in and do the odd song. I got really fed up of hearing things being thrashed to death.
I may be able to start a monthly club, something I was thinking about before Halifax but which Paul helped me firm up. A friend of mine and I have booked a date just before Christmas. We will promote this to other singers and songwriters of some experience. We will be running it as a social event for those who want to listen and proximity to Christmas will help. As musicians we want to spend a nice night with friends who are attentive and interested! This might become a feature the New Year, one which allows us to given up and coming talent proper length spots to develop their art.
I'm very lucky really as there is a lot of music near me that I can take advantage of. But bloody audiences ....
Of course, nothing can stop me now I have a Men in Black T Shirt.
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Post by scorpiodog on Oct 7, 2014 16:23:24 GMT
Of course, nothing can stop me now I have a Men in Black T Shirt. You are one of the privileged few, Andy. Wear it with pride.
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 7, 2014 16:26:04 GMT
Of course, nothing can stop me now I have a Men in Black T Shirt. You are one of the privileged few, Andy. Wear it with pride. No fear Paul :-) I've had a few enquiries about it already :-)
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 7, 2014 21:03:53 GMT
Oops! Sorry, young man! I'll not edit the original, too many people already think I'm perfect Name those people, Leo! Well ... there's me and God (does She count as a person?)
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Post by chris501 on Oct 7, 2014 21:20:18 GMT
I have got fed up with listening to things on the laptop or phone, or trying to find things and getting sidetracked because someone messages you or something. I'm going to put a proper stereo back together and go and buy some CD's again. Starting with the Foo Fighters new one. I'm looking forward to it, lots of their songs sound great played acoustically.
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Oct 7, 2014 22:08:19 GMT
I still have my hifi, Chris. Just bought some new Q Acoustics speakers as it happens, and using a PC or equivalent pales in comparison.
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Post by mandovark on Oct 8, 2014 8:29:42 GMT
This is a very current topic Paul make no apology for its length its complicated subject which raises a lot of hackles There was an interview some time ago about this and the had the usual Pro and Con debate one person said this. If you are an architect and design a house or a bridge whatever you get paid once for the design. Thereafter whoever live s in the house or uses the bridge does not pay any more to the architect. If you are an artist (painter, sculpter, whatever) you sell a painting and you bank the money, if the buyer puts your artefact on permanent display you get no more cash So why is it different for art i.e. created in a musical form that they get a fee for the music and then royalties for the next 75 years What is so different here we are still talking art, creation, money or is somebody going to suggest Pet sounds, Sgt Peppers, etc are not works of art. The world has changed in the 20C the music and distribution was controlled by managers record companies and people who played music or made stuff to play it. The internet changed everything once your song is out there its out there. Nothing you can do to stop people listening for free or a small fee. Thats why in the last year many artists have had there stuff taken off you tube His bobness included Can you imagine Frank Lloyd Wright or Picasso going round asking people who live in or look at their stuff to pay money for the privilege they (if still alive ) would be locked up It just does not stop there think in purely emotional terms. How much pleasure do you get listening to music you think of the total amount of pleasure you have heard over your lifetime in listening to your top 10 favourite records. That must equate with the pleasure of seeing beautiful paintings/art. I can remember the sheer joy I got seeing Rodin's The Kiss in the Louvre for the first time. He only got paid once (thats why he made more than one Kiss sculpture) The Defence rests m'Lud Read more: acousticsoundboard.co.uk/thread/3533?page=2#ixzz3FXdNvxAxBut this overlooks the fact that different art forms work in different ways. Architects and sculptors aren't working in art forms that involve mass reproduction and distribution. If somebody started producing and selling knockoff versions of a sculptor's work, I'm fairly sure the sculptor whould have them up in court straight away. An architect or a sculptor will normally only expect to be paid once for a piece of work - that's why they usually charge a lot of money for it. If a musician records an album, where is that big initial payment coming from (particularly if they aren't signed by a major label)? Which CD or download of the album is the 'original' one that should cost thousands before all the rest become free? Who makes that initial payment? Or should a musician have to accept that once one person has paid £8 for his new CD, he should forget about being entitled to make anything else from it? A more accurate comparison might be with writers, who do expect to earn royalties on each copy of a book sold (some will be paid advances - though big advances are much rarer than people often assume - but these remain, at least technically, advances on anticipated future royalties, not extra money). Without the ongoing royalties on each copy sold, a writer couldn't possibly earn anything from their work. I know less about music publishing, but I imagine the situation is much the same.
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Post by mandovark on Oct 8, 2014 8:31:55 GMT
Don't know why the quote keeps disappearing from that last post, but it should be from the second post on the thread! Edit by Martin : I've inserted the missing quote text above.
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Post by mandovark on Oct 8, 2014 10:07:08 GMT
Thanks Martin - for some reason, the quote function seems not to work properly from my office computer. Maybe someone is trying to tell me something
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 8, 2014 10:12:30 GMT
This was rather put into perspective for me last night when Sara and Heather came with me to see Muriel Anderson in Manchester. Had they not come with me, the audience would've been just 10! Now, at £12 a ticket... Take off travelling expenses, venue hire, sound engineer fee (and the fact she had a couple of guest guitarists)... If she didn't sell everyone 10 CDs, she lost money, right? It was a great gig for the audience, though - up close and personal... Attachments:
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Post by scorpiodog on Oct 8, 2014 10:29:50 GMT
Ah, yes, but Leo, that's not about being a musician. That's about being in business/self employed/not a wage slave.
Some enterprises and ventures are profitable and some are not. As running a business depends on making a profit (not profiteering - that's something different again), then success in business is about making a profit more often (or at higher amounts) than making a loss.
Sometimes there are things that can be done (in this case, I would suspect that lack of promotion was a problem, but that is diagnosis without examination, so I'm possibly wrong) and sometimes the venture or enterprise is just a bad idea.
I would guess that if Muriel Anderson is wise, she won't organise a gig in that venue and in the same way as she did last night.
But for an audience, her mistake is hidden gold. You got far more value out of last night's experience than your ticket price was calculated to give you. I've had that experience a handful of times (I once saw Stefan Grossman at Bath Pavilion with about 25 people in the audience). But one would hope that this doesn't happen often, because the talented lady you saw would be unable to continue entertaining people professionally if she was.
My question is: Should she complain about it? And, I suppose, should she complain about it more than anyone in any business should complain if they miscalculate and lose money?
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 8, 2014 11:11:04 GMT
I have to say she didn't complain at all.. (Though that might be because it wasn't our fault. We, after all, were there)
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Post by stringdriventhing on Oct 8, 2014 13:35:28 GMT
I suppose most of us like a good moan about our work every once in a while. Why should musicians be any different
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Post by missclarktree on Oct 8, 2014 17:48:31 GMT
Name those people, Leo! Well ... there's me and God (does She count as a person?) Three in one and one in three Ruler of the earth and sea
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Post by d28boy on Oct 10, 2014 15:14:58 GMT
I've been lurking for a while as I've moved to electric land but this thread has caught my attention & so I'll chip in here as I have some current experience in this area & feel "qualified" to chat...
I've formed a band a while back and we got our final member... our vocalist in Jan..... Things progressed at a good rate from there and so we started looking for gigs. Quickly found out that pubs won't really risk putting a band on without some sort of live track record though a recording helps..We got our first gig beginning of May....our pay was ZERO....we just wanted the gig...but we got a free bar ...Having done that one gig seemed to open the door for us which is what we needed as most pubs just stick with the same selection of bands which they re-cycle. However we found that it appears usual to play for nothing first time out...If you're good and or bring in loads of new punters they'll have you back and pay you too..So now we get free beer and some cash. But hey aren't most of the punters on here playing for pleasure anyway....? Getting paid anything is a bonus and for we electrical sinners it does help in adding new equipment or paying for recording ( which we are having a go at next weekend ). But we've also lost gigs with places closing down or places just simply changing their mind.....Not much you can do about that but we're having great fun !
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