Martin
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Post by Martin on Jul 10, 2015 15:36:47 GMT
Really good thread and great comments so far.
I see it very simply, in terms of sole luthier type setups. It's supply and demand, and if a luthier can afford to make a living (I know, that's a weird statement) building guitars, then it's because enough people want to buy these guitars that they can raise the prices to a level which supports them.
Most guitar builders will, I suppose, supplement their income from building guitars, by making other instruments and carrying out repairs and setups. Some may even have other jobs.
To those who can sell their guitars at a price where they can live comfortably, I say well done!
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Post by earwighoney on Jul 10, 2015 16:05:01 GMT
I've had the good fortune to play one or two of Ianlp59's guitars, and I can confirm that they are utterly beautiful, but in my hands, they may as well be wooden boxes from the local fruiterer. I was thinking the same thing - amazing guitars in the hands of someone who can do them justice, which Ian certainly can, but I'm not one of those someones. I played a (forget the name, Krinklebottom or something) about 10 years ago that was a high end handmade American guitar. The owner was telling me how sensitive it was to humidity changes. He had three different saddles to choose from, depending on the weather. All I could think was "Man, what a PITA." I'd rather have spent the money on a plain D-28, which is still probably a better guitar than I will ever need. Lynn might have meant Froggy Bottom, but I'd rather own a Krinklebottom guitar. A good point about humidity changes affecting the soundboard/action, it can be a consequence of a comparatively thin and lightly braced soundboard. When it comes to the 'Krinklebottom' being prone to humidity changes, it's nothing in contrast to John Williams Greg Smallman guitar which have such light/thin soundboards that JW's tech accidentally put his finger through! Considering Smallman guitars are 20-30k or so, I'd cry if I did that.
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Post by jonnymosco on Jul 10, 2015 16:18:51 GMT
I see it very simply, in terms of sole luthier type setups. It's supply and demand Fleta springs to mind, probably the most expensive classical guitars, built by Ignacio's grandson now, with a twenty year waiting list (I doubt the price is fixed at the time of order!). In the steel string world, Jason Kostal's guitars were relatively affordable when he was an apprentice of Somogyi and when he first set up his workshop, demand has pushed the prices up, he has closed his list and there is apparently a six year wait. Financial appreciation and investment are important to some collectors of high-end guitars, but to me, if that is the sole motivation in buying a guitar, it's missing the point. However, I can appreciate that it's a bonus if a guitar increases in value. Like Ian, I play my guitars most of the time and am fortunate enough to have become friends with the people who made them and each guitar has its own story - like the time I smuggled that Brazilian Rosewood...Jonny
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Post by creamburmese on Jul 10, 2015 16:56:45 GMT
So what's wrong with Froggy Bottoms then??? I think they can make even mediocre players (speaking from personal experience) sound good!
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Post by earwighoney on Jul 10, 2015 17:32:02 GMT
So what's wrong with Froggy Bottoms then??? I think they can make even mediocre players (speaking from personal experience) sound good! You'll find Lynn was referring to a Krinklybottom. FB's are superb, I really like the sound of their Model C/00 models, not cheap at $12k or so, but it sounds beautiful The guy has a fine beard as well.
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Post by slasher on Jul 10, 2015 18:01:14 GMT
I'm afraid it really is like the housing market. The boutique guitar market is driven by supply and demand. Basically these guitars are worth what they can get for them. If a maker can make guitars and earn a decent living then that is fine by me. Don't we all aspire to having a financially secure life? If people are prepared to pay huge amounts (by my standards) then that is their right, but not for me. I have a splendid guitar made by Mr Moon in Glasgow and a really cheap far-eastern guitar. Both are super guitars in their different ways and suit different styles of playing. So you don't have to pay the earth, you just might want to! A bit like those super-cars they raffle at airports, I would quite like a go in one, but I wouldn't want to own one. I want something I can take down the pub and feel relaxed about.
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Akquarius
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Post by Akquarius on Jul 10, 2015 18:08:35 GMT
I'm with Leo here. Every price, no matter how high, is justified the very moment somebody actually pays it.
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Post by mandovark on Jul 10, 2015 18:31:55 GMT
I found the same when I played a lot of tennis, to intermediate standards. The difference between most £50 rackets and most £200 ones was huge. After that the law of diminishing returns set in. A £5000 racket still couldn't get me to regularly do a good topspin backhand ... I remember a former editor of Cycling Weekly talking about the tendency to think that if we can just get that next bit of shiny new kit, it will take us to the next level. He said something along the lines of "Every time I think that buying something new is the key to improvement, I remind myself that I couldn't win the Tour de France on Chris Froome's bike, but he could win it on mine". It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that if I can just get the guitar and other kit that [insert name of favourite guitarist] uses, I'll be able to sound like him/her. I'm sure this plays at least some part in driving up the prices of some well-known brands and luthiers - which is not by any means to say that those makers are not making excellent guitars. It's just that there can be a kind of quick-fix mentality that creeps in to some players, as if you can become an excellent guitarist just by buying the same instrument used by an excellent guitarist. I've always liked David Oddy's response to a customer who complained that his Oddy mandocello didn't sound like Steve Knightley's: "That's because he's a professional musician, and you're not." None of this is meant as a criticism either of people who buy high-priced instruments or of the people who make and sell them. The way I see it is that musical instruments are luxuries (it's not as if the UN puts mandolins in aid packages), and who am I to say that what I spend on my luxuries is ok, but what someone else spends on theirs is too much? But I do think it's important to know exactly what you are and aren't getting. If you're buying a high-end guitar because it suits your playing style and you'll enjoy playing it and maybe develop as player because of it, good luck to you. But if you're buying that Martin Taylor signature model in the hope that it will make you sound like Martin Taylor, then you're probably going to be disappointed - unless, of course, you are Martin Taylor.
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brianr2
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Post by brianr2 on Jul 10, 2015 18:55:27 GMT
However high or low the price, if it makes you happy, it's worth it; if it doesn't, it costs too much.
Brian
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Post by creamburmese on Jul 10, 2015 19:55:35 GMT
However high or low the price, if it makes you happy, it's worth it; if it doesn't, it costs too much. Brian I agree with this - many of us have an obsession hobby that we spend most of our spare time, energy and cash on. If my hobby involves acquiring a small number of nice guitars, which I spend upwards of 1000 hours a year playing, who's to say that I don't need them or they won't sound as good as they possibly could with a better player? It's my money and that's the luxury I choose to spend it on rather than fancy holidays, a golf club membership or a Porsche (as if I could). I say all credit to the luthiers who are making astounding guitars, and even at $10,000 apiece small volume luthiers are not rolling in luxury - just making a living doing something they have a gift for and that gives the rest of us a lot of pleasure. Of course I'd like to spend less and get the same thing, but like Brian said, the cost is what the market will bear.
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Post by fretter on Jul 12, 2015 20:38:36 GMT
Great thread. I must admit, that my eyeballs swivel when I see what you can pay for a sought after boutique guitar. However, I would guess that the majority of luthiers aren't living in the lap of luxury, and probably rely on routine set ups/repairs etc for a good chunk of their income.
In 1995, I was in the happy position of being able to commission a guitar from Nigel Thornbory. At the time, he lived just around the corner. He offered fantastic advice throughout the ordering process, and, at regular intervals during the build, I was able to go and see how things were going. The result was a lovely guitar, which was made just for me and which I play most days. Probably the best money I have ever spent. It is still possible to pay sensible money for a similar build, if you avoid the stellar names.
As an aside, I bought a Martin kit a while ago, with a view to building one myself. A hideously complicated and frustrating few week's work resulted a roughly (very!) assembled body, and a neck that would have required the grip of Giant Haystacks to get the string within a short bus ride of the fretboard. Like many seemingly good ideas, the whole thing has lived in a box in the garage ever since.
Anybody who can make a aesthetically pleasing guitar which sounds good, has my undying admiration. The attention to detail, patience, and skill required to avoid the endless possibilities for a complete and expensive cock up is unbelievable.
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Post by K Tresp on Jul 12, 2015 21:52:06 GMT
It is a good thread and handled sensitively. I agree with many of the comments both for and against. I am lucky enough to own some great instruments. None will be more expensive in relative terms for me than the lowden O25 I picked up 25 years ago for £800 after saving and scraping everything together for 2 years (surplus income at that time minimal). Dave's comments about the prices paid by musicians in other disciplines is relevant as well.
I don't know for sure but suspect if you broke down (for those luthiers turning out a small number of instruments by hand) the materials costs, overheads and then did an hourly rate for the sheer number of hours put in, not many of them, even at the high end, are making significant profits.
Of course there is some silliness ( the seemingly endless chatter about this months latest holy grail woods for example) and some guitars that are not particularly great given the price but there are also some amazing instruments built by craftsmen who can be considered as artists in their own right.
I have two issues, first the sound quality of some (but by no means all) of the guitars turned out by the big name manufacturers and sold at prices which are high enough (pop into a major stockist and pick up a 2k+ big name acoustic. You might be lucky but there are some distinctly poor sounding guitars out there). Second the collectors who don't really play the instruments at all (however badly). As one of the earlier posts set lout though - whatever makes them happy.
PS - I am also waiting for an Aram and agree about relative merits.
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Post by scripsit on Jul 13, 2015 1:25:45 GMT
I've had contact with a few classical musicians, and steel string guitar buyers have it easy and cheap in comparison (looked at the prices for a medium quality violin or harpsichord, recently?), even for very very good guitars.
When I first became somewhat obsessed with fingerstyle I tried all the factory guitars I could find (admittedly, not a huge selection locally), and was disappointed with the sound and playability of the top of the line Martins and Taylors. In addition, these sell for $7,000-$8,000 and up, considerably more than they cost in the US.
Both of my luthier built guitars were cheaper than this, and both are considerably better instruments than any factory model I've come across to this day.
My playing has improved considerably since I've had access to good instruments which are capable of sounding good if I put the time in. I suspect I will never get any better than relentlessly intermediate in standard, but none of that will be down to the guitars I play.
I'm thinking of getting another guitar soon, mainly to spread the tunings I use. I figure that after that, and even with all the recording gear, amps and stands and so on I haven't spent anything like what it would cost to buy a second hand sports car or touring motorbike or other midlife crisis adult toy. And I get to play music, a lot.
Kym
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Post by michaelwatts on Jul 14, 2015 9:39:59 GMT
Hello all,
The guitar in the review was Greenfield GF in Ziricote and Adirondack Spruce which sold within hours of its arrival (its new owner generously allowed us to keep it long enough to get the review done).
You can watch it in action here.
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Post by andyhowell on Jul 14, 2015 12:31:13 GMT
Ian makes a good point about supply and demand.
The prices of luthiers seem to me to be determined by their waiting lists. Earlier this year I mentioned this book which is well worth reading:
Guitar Makers: The Endurance of Artisanal Values in North America by Kathryn Marie Dudley
She shows how as luthiers get more exposure — and waiting lists are tight — the se one hand value of their instruments overtakes actual cost of a new one. This has forced a number of people — Traugott and Olson for example — to significantly hike their prices.
So, you may well find a luthier guitar that is reasonably priced that is as good an instruments as say a Greenfield. Or you may not. But you can't blame the luthier if he or she is in demand!
It is worth reflecting that handmade guitars are by default much more affordable than many individual instruments — violins, cellos, etc. Overall, we get a good deal.
I have some sympathy for the effect that 'collectors' are having on the market but then again there is nothing unusual in people wanting to build up collections or trying to buy for investment purposes as well as pleasure.
My Lucas guitar is — I believe — pretty good and stands comparison with many others. Adrian produces 12 to 15 guitars a year and teaches guitar making for the rest of his time, a balance he seems happy with. I doubt he will ever become very trendy but he would probably not want that.
So, it is horses for courses really and we all have to face the reality of supply and demand.
I remember some years ago almost buying a Sobell (new) I think for around £3K. I didn't. I have bought three other guitars for around this price. I can buy my Martin J40 at about the same price. My Santa Cruz OM will cost me almost a grand more. A new Sobell? I wouldn't even think about it!
In my view the very best builders on the planet are justified in trying to make a decent living out of it! Of course, fashion might come into it but then it always does!
One final reflection on Dudley's book above. She looks at threats to the ongoing boutique industry. One of these is demand. From her interviews it seems that many commissions these days are from people of a certain age, those who might otherwise be buying very bike motor bikes. Will this market continue to develop? In her view this is far from certain!
So, bottom line. If you want a particular guitar and you can afford it, nobody should be surprised if it sells! Whatever the price!
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