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Post by chaucer on May 30, 2016 9:54:19 GMT
The best advice I can give you if you want to narrow your search is to start with something similar to what you already have and work out from there. Wisdom. ?
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Post by chaucer on May 30, 2016 9:58:24 GMT
It's not a minefield - it's a sweet shop ... Sorry if we seem to be being unhelpful chaucer _ ... actually your present acoustic guitar is probably pretty good sounding and easy playing. Think what you like/dislike about it and look for things that genuinely improve on it. There will be loads of guitars that sound/feel different, but that doesn't necessarily mean better. Yes, sweeties! Not unhelpful at all. I do love my Yamaha FG 332. It has served me well for years. I had thought, what if I save my money and just spend a little on a decent set up and having a pickup installed.
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Post by chaucer on May 30, 2016 9:59:42 GMT
Further, and a slight tangent .... there is not much info on the FG 332. I read somewhere it may be a laminate top not solid wood. How would I be able to tell? Are there any clear and obvious signs?
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Martin
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Post by Martin on May 30, 2016 10:24:32 GMT
You can check around the soundhole - if you see the wood grain continue from what appears on the top into the inside of the soundhole (like the cross section) then it is probably a solid top.
I had a Yamaha FG series a few years ago and it was all laminate, buit a very decent guitar regardless.
Going second hand is always going to get you a saving, but if you do this, it may take some time to find something you like. I'd always buy local too, so you can see and try what you're getting. Gumtree has been very successful for me in that respect.
For £600, you have a very decent selection at most guitar shops. Within that price range, there are excellent Faith guitars available, as well as the Tanglewood and Seagull/Godin range.
Second-hand, you might also be able to find a Taylor 3XX or Martin X15 range guitar, or perhaps a Larrivee or even a Gibson J15/J35 type instrument.
Good luck.
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Post by andy3sheds on May 30, 2016 11:36:13 GMT
If the edge of the sound hole looks really thick it might be because the sound hole is reinforced so the grain won't follow through my O12 Lowden was like this £600 is eminently realistic budget for a good guitar, and so is the idea of adding electrics later, have fun searching Yam L series Seagulls Faiths all worth looking at
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on May 30, 2016 12:51:17 GMT
It's not a minefield - it's a sweet shop ... Sorry if we seem to be being unhelpful chaucer _ ... actually your present acoustic guitar is probably pretty good sounding and easy playing. Think what you like/dislike about it and look for things that genuinely improve on it. There will be loads of guitars that sound/feel different, but that doesn't necessarily mean better. Yes, sweeties! Not unhelpful at all. I do love my Yamaha FG 332. It has served me well for years. I had thought, what if I save my money and just spend a little on a decent set up and having a pickup installed. This could well be a v sensible move, and give you more experience in the plugged-in acoustic side of things at a relatively low cost - and you can still spend as much time as possible looking for something else anyway - just possibly feeling less pressurised...? Keith
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Post by vikingblues on May 30, 2016 18:52:11 GMT
Does look likely from what I see on-line that the top on the Yamaha is laminated. But you can get laminate top guitars that sound good and you can get solid top guitars that sound bad. Generally the view is that a solid top v laminate makes more difference than solid back and sides v laminate. At £600 you are very much in all solid wood, or certainly solid top at least. It is a good idea to ignore the name badge when trying guitars, maybe even trying to avoid looking at the guitar very much to begin with when trying it out. I have tried what seems like too many acoustic guitars in the last 2+ years but I can't really say I've been very aware of any brand type sound. Or indeed a brand type quality level. I have three Tanglewoods in my collection and two of them were chosen against competition in comparison and testing trips to the shops. But I have also tried Tanglewoods that did not appeal to me. I found myself one day playing a Tanglewood that was the same model as my then favourite guitar - the shop suggested it would be useful to help me judge what I was trying out. But it was nothing like the guitar I had at home for either sound or playability. The sound and playability are such key factors, but I would recommend you need BOTH as priority #1. I have made the mistake of spending a lot of money on getting a guitar because it sounded so incredibly good. I even noted at the time on the forum here that I would have to "get used to" the playability aspects - but I didn't manage to crack that problem. If a guitar has great sustain and resonance you need to have the skills to damp those when needed. If it has great clarity of sound you need to have the skill to bring colour and warmth to it. I didn't ... etcetera. As Keith rightly says a guitar that really suits and sounds good might well not be any good at all for someone else. Or it will vary depending the style and way you play. I have encountered guitars that sound very good if I play them with more than my normal force, but when played in my normal gentle way they sound lifeless. Regarding makers label the last time I went out and did a testing in shops routine and tried all mahogany small body guitars there were various brands to try - including Sigma, Alvarez, Guild, Tanglewood and Martin. All within my budget. It ended up as a shoot-out between a Martin (just under £1,500) and a Tanglewood (just under £300). I kid not when I say that there was little to separate them on sound to my ears and after swapping back and forth between the two for some considerable time I realised the Tanglewood won for playability and for making me want to play expressively. Possibly a case of the skill level of the player finding its natural level! I had fancied the idea of a Martin in the collection, so I worked hard at trying to like the Martin most. When I got interested in higher end guitars I watched quite a lot of comparisons of guitar types on the acoustic letter youtube channel. It may give you some broad ideas on things. Guitar ComparisonsBut - take it with a pinch of salt and always bear in mind that you're hearing someone else play. For example I thought I had got a sort of ballpark type of sound for Taylor guitars and for Martin guitars from a good few comparison videos on that channel by Tony Polecastro. What I had actually got an idea of though was how they might sound if played specifically by him. When he played I was usually preferring the Taylor sound. But when played by me, not only did they sound nothing like the same as when he played them, but I was tending to favour the Martins. Not to the extent of buying one though. I have found some notes on a file on my computer that I got off a guitar builders website a couple of years back that tried to define tonewoods sounds. I can't find the site to link it for you, but the headline descriptions were:- Sitka Spruce - meaty, punchy sound with a rich edge Englemann Spruce - clear, open and responsive Western Red Cedar - rich, fruity and explosive Adirondack (Red) Spruce - depth and clarity with a smooth punch Redwood (Sequoia) - dark and lush with crisp ringing definition Indian Rosewood - deep, rich definition Mahogany - balanced, rich and woody Walnut - fat and woody punch But it really is probably as misleading as it is helpful. For example I usually find Sitka Spruce far from meaty, and in that range of all-Mahogany guitars I tried that day I mentioned there were some that were most assuredly not rich and woody but quite thin sounding. I'm afraid there are strong things to be said in favour of just having to try lots of guitars in shops. If you can try to get an idea of what physical characteristics you like or dislike you can then start narrowing your search down. It is good to try different shops too - some seem much more clued up about acoustic instruments and some shops seem to specialise in having horrible dead strings on guitars. Sorry - I wish I could come up with some good hard and fast rules and guidelines. But good luck with it all anyway. On the plus side at up to £600 it's possible to find a good many very good guitars and it's a nicely set budget at a price point just before where getting more expensive runs into the law of diminishing returns. Mark
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Post by leoroberts on May 31, 2016 8:27:19 GMT
I can't add to this debate in any way - other than to say that what you're REALLY trying to do is to find a £750 guitar - and haggling
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Post by creamburmese on May 31, 2016 19:15:10 GMT
Great post, as usual Keith. Couldn't agree more. Darned if I don't remember being in a similar position to Chaucer a few short years ago... which acoustic should I buy? Unlike him I didn't bother to ask, and subsequently spent lotsa $, time and stress coming to the same conclusion as everyone (above) - you have to play it and find it easy to play, you have to like the sound and not get tired of it, and it has to sound good doing whatever you need it to do. So to play devil's advocate it might actually be useful to know what the generalizations are in an attempt to see if you can hear and verify or disprove what so many people think is true about particular guitars. Also if you play a lot of guitars, you may find the things you thought were most important are actually further down on the priority list, and other factors might rule out guitars you otherwise like a lot. This is my experience with some generalizations you hear ...] Taylor guitars are known to be super consistent, with a "bright" bright sound (too bright for some) and easy playable necks... see below. Gibsons make both the most fantastic guitars and arguably pretty mediocre guitars of the same model - - my experience was admiring a model in a showroom (which sold really fast) and then buying the exact same nearly new model second hand and finding it was not the same guitar at all in terms of sound. Probably if I'd bought the one in the showroom I would still have it - great guitar. Mahogany backed guitars have a lot of fundamentals without too many overtones compared with rosewood - I did have a mahogany Martin that was very strong on the fundamentals (incidentally was also bass heavy despite being a relatively small guitar) Eastmans are Chinese and inconsistent in build. I measured the nut width on a bunch of Eastmans of the same model in a reputable guitar store and found that 1 3/4" means different things to different guitars.... Goodalls are known for an overwhelming piano-like sound - I had 2 Goodalls both with outstanding sound, maybe even too many overtones, but the necks were too chunky for my hands regardless of size. Bigger guitars have more bass and are less balanced.... my vintage CJ Lowden had absolutely phenomenal sound, and was very well balanced, but it was just too big and too beat up for me. Cedar tops have a mellow round sound but less clarity compared with spruce - my cedar classical has both mellowness and clarity, and my spruce classical has a pretty mellow sound! Froggy Bottoms have amazing sustain and are great fingerstyle guitars -yup - but mine was not as easy for me to play fingerstyle as the guitar I currently have. And unlike the guitar I have, it didn't do so well with a plectrum. Canadian guitars made by Godin (Seagulls, Art and Lutherie) - are great value for money. I have a little old parlor that makes way more sound than it should for such a pint sized guitar. Speaking of which here is what I said to myself about buying a guitar - I won't ever buy a new guitar (both because you can do better used, and because guitars mature in time and the sound may or may not improve). Also that I would never buy a Taylor cos the sound is too bright. So what acoustic guitar do I currently have as a keeper? A Taylor I bought brand new off the wall in a guitar shop..... Here are things I didn't know would be important to me when I started my guitar journey -YMMV - neck shape is super important for playability- more so than nut width (I play a 52mm classical, a 50 mm classical and a 44.45mm acoustic) but they all have low volume fairly round necks. I like the sound of short scale (630mm) guitars and they suit my length-challenged arms and short fat fingers. That being said my main playing guitar is a 645 with a 52mm neck,,,. go figure. Any guitar that causes me to start to have pain in any part of my body - hands, arms, neck, back, big toe etc.... - is out of here even if it makes me sound like Tommy Emmanuel. (though I might put up with it for a bit under those circumstances!) Yes I do care what a guitar looks like. There are guitars I wouldn't buy regardless of sound because they have too much bling or are too beat up. Anyone else got examples ? I'm sure others here with much more experience than me have lots of other stories.
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Post by chaucer on Jun 2, 2016 7:57:34 GMT
Thanks for all the great info. creamburmese ... thanks for trying to summarise ... with your own caveats in there.
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Post by andyhowell on Jun 2, 2016 8:44:47 GMT
It is always worth remembering that the luthier or manufacture makes a big difference. A lot of outfits have their own 'brand' sound which seems to shine through whatever the woods used. For example, I am not generally a fan of the Lowden sound although I've found a few that I liked. I've neve diagnosed this but Lowdens have a very distinct sound to me as do Gibsons. Brooks also seem to have a quite distinct. and consistent sound to me.
And then the voicing of the guitar and the way the bracing is used makes a big difference. When I was in Stonehaven a week or so ago I played a wonderful spruce and walnut guitar from Steve Agnew. This was a OOO short scale guitar that was very, very sweet. Hanging next to it was a Brook Tamar in Sprice and Walnut. This sounded much more like your celtic-y finger style guitar. two guitars, similar body shapes and the same woods _ very different instruments.
Another thing that is under-estimated in my view is technique. No, don't panic! However, whether you play with nails, a combination of nail and skin or just skin, or whether you use artificials or picks will give the guitar a fundamental edge to the sound.
That being said by playing many guitars over time you begin to recognise some things. For finger style I always prefer a rosewood and a spruce top. I am a great fan of well sourced sitka for tops. The best country blues or ragtime guitars I have played have been mahogany or walnut.
My three guitars are:
a Martin J40 sitka and East Indian Rosewood — a big and lush sound with lots of natural overtones (but not too many as make the sound horrible);
a Santa Cruz OM in sitka and East Indian Rosewood —a classic all rounder on which I can play anything. Changing from lights to medium strings does make a difference;
a luthier built small jumbo in sitka and wenge, wenge being a wood that is close in tone to Brazilian Rosewood but which is difficult to work and can be brittle. This guitar was designed for finger style guitar and constructed specifically for certain requirements.
In some ways the woods are very similar and the tops are all sitka but they sound very different.
There is no substitute for playing as many decent guitars as you can _ met decent guitar shops are happy for people to play their instruments.
Finally, you can have decent instruments with laminated back and sides but you will always get a good sound from a solid soundboard. There are some great instruments in the £600-£800 range and some of them are very consistent. I have been blown away by Walden Guitars from China and the ones I have played are better than many Taylors and Martins.
As we get into the solid wood range guitars from Larrivee and the new Guilds are to me ears fabulous guitars.
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Post by jonnymosco on Jun 2, 2016 22:01:43 GMT
Look no further... I have a rather nice Freshman for sale within your budget that's recently landed on my lap! Fantastic guitar, but need to fund a repair on another guitar. I was hoping to sell it to a student, but they all have decent guitars I've sourced for them at the moment.
I shall add to the debate when I have a little more time.
PM me if you're interested and I'll forward details.
Cheers
Jonny
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Post by stringdriventhing on Jun 3, 2016 6:01:14 GMT
All the stuff about woods and stuff I won't comment on.. It's so subjective. I like cedar tops tho If you're used to electric guitar necks definitely try Taylor and Faith. My daughter's Tanglewood TW73 also has a very slender neck (I can't play it ) My advice would to be to try out as many guitars you can get your hands on before parting with your dosh.. and have fun For £600 my top tip would be to look at Furch/Stonebridge. Awesome guitars for the money!
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Post by chaucer on Aug 5, 2016 19:48:01 GMT
Hello all,
Here is a long overdue update.
I have tried several guitars in a few shop visits.
In approximate price order ...
Tanglewood Master Design TSR1
Martin 000X1SAE Faith Natural Series Jupiter FJ-CE Yamaha AC3R
Yamaha AC1M
Fender Paramount PR-2 Epiphone Masterbilt DR500M CE Hagstrom Elfdalia Sigma JR40CE Sigma DR28 Tanglewood ... several models about £250-350 - can't remember the models
Takamine ... several models about £50-350 can't remember the models
My favourites on the shortlist:
Epiphone DR500M CE Yamaha AC3R Faith Jupiter
Plus ... I would like to try a Fender Paramount PR-3 (OOO size)
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Post by chaucer on Aug 5, 2016 20:10:13 GMT
General impressions ...
Going from a solid wood to a solid top / laminate back & sides and back again revealed how much more life and oomph the solid wood has (regardless of the woods).
A jumbo is not much bigger than a dread and a OM is not much smaller than a dread. All were very comfortable to me.
Some electronics are more intuitive than others and have a greater effect with no changes in the amp.
I don't mind which wood, I liked them all.
I don't like bling but do like some subtle attention to detail in terms of fret markers, binding, purfling etc.
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