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Post by surfguy13 on Sept 5, 2017 17:59:13 GMT
Hi everybody
I am in a bit of a quandry as to whether to go for a K&K Pure Mini pickup or not due to the need to use superglue to install the transducers to the bridge plate. After much dithering and an initial decision to go for a LR Baggs M1A I had pretty much settled on the K&K PM due to its ability to reproduce a clear and transparent sound. However, on looking at a couple of install videos it appears that most people, including K&K apparently, are recommening that the tranducers are glued to the bridge plate rather than using the supplied adhesive pads.
I can see the sense of glueing given that pads may well fall off in time, but what concerns me is the removal of the transducers. Bridge plates can be quite thin and from my experiences with superglue I'm wondering is removing the transducers will also remove a chunck of the bridge plate!!
I'd be really interested to know if anyone has installed a Pure Mini and how they have installed the transducers.
Many thanks
Guy
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Post by rob on Sept 5, 2017 19:41:52 GMT
I installed them in my lakewood a few years back, l pondered about it for weeks and then just did it. I did wrap the guitar up in cardboard and tape just in case there was any unsuspected super glue around. If i remember i just used a mirror and bench lamp shining in the guitar, took my time and used the supplied glue and they were bang in place, can't always say i'm dead excited by the sound though. Rob
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stringdriventhing
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Post by stringdriventhing on Sept 5, 2017 20:17:04 GMT
I got a man to install K&Ks in two guitars and a mandolin. I'm just waiting for another one to arrive from Thomann for my wee tenor guitar and this time I'm going to try myself, with the assistance help of a pal who isn't a walking disaster area. I'll let you know how we go. Might be tricky fitting it as the soundhole on the tenor is tiny... maybe we'll enlist a small child to help...
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Post by surfguy13 on Sept 5, 2017 20:54:56 GMT
I installed them in my lakewood a few years back, l pondered about it for weeks and then just did it. I did wrap the guitar up in cardboard and tape just in case there was any unsuspected super glue around. If i remember i just used a mirror and bench lamp shining in the guitar, took my time and used the supplied glue and they were bang in place, can't always say i'm dead excited by the sound though. Rob Thanks Rob........I didn't realise that K&K supplied glue, that's useful to know. Also interesting that the sound hasn't blown you away too. Good to have an objective view.
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Post by surfguy13 on Sept 5, 2017 20:56:48 GMT
I got a man to install K&Ks in two guitars and a mandolin. I'm just waiting for another one to arrive from Thomann for my wee tenor guitar and this time I'm going to try myself, with the assistance help of a pal who isn't a walking disaster area. I'll let you know how we go. Might be tricky fitting it as the soundhole on the tenor is tiny... maybe we'll enlist a small child to help... I was stressing about trying to work inside a large soundhole in a dreadnought so I can't imagine how difficult it would be to install into a mandolin!!!! I wish you luck.......
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Sept 5, 2017 20:58:49 GMT
I've installed a couple, using the method here rather than following K&K's instructions - www.cavalierpickups.com/frettech/kk/index.htmlThe first time, I got confused using a mirror to check the positioning, and ended up with the offset transducer on the bass rather than the treble side. Despite having used superglue, I was later able to remove all three transducers without difficulty or damage, using K&K's suggested method of a razor blade. My second attempt, on a different guitar, worked perfectly. Maybe I was lucky with that first removal process, but when I tried to take one out of another guitar there was no way the superglue was coming off. As I was fitting a soundhole pickup, and was prepared to sacrifice the K&K, I ended up cutting the wires and just leaving the superglued transducers in place. They're still there to this day. Although I love the simplicity of the K&K setup, like Rob I'm no longer a fan of the sound - though plenty are, including on this forum. That said, I have one guitar (Fylde Orsino) on which, whilst the K&K was fitted professionally, the positioning of the transducers is some way off the ideal. It sounds great! Go figure, as they say.
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Post by rob on Sept 5, 2017 21:05:43 GMT
The glue was thicker more paste(gel) like than standard super glue so didn't run everywhere, its quite an easy process...i think some people make a jig with wooden sticks and spacers to get them in the right place before gluing, you do have a short time to slide them slightly on the glue to get them just right. Rob
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Sept 5, 2017 22:59:43 GMT
The adhesive pads are not so good - volume certainly suffers, and quite possibly tone too. Glue is the way to go.
I've done a dozen or so installations of K&K minis, mostly in guitars, but also in a bouzouki and a mandolin (the latter requiring some additional application tools made from bent coathanger wire as the soundhole was so small.) Not difficult, though the first can seem a bit daunting.
The supplied instructions and other suggested one-at-a-time with jig methods all seem a bit of a faff, so I glue all three transducers at once - I align them at the correct spacing outside the guitar, along the strings by the saddle, and set the spacing by joining them with Blutack on their non-fitting surfaces to a thin strip of card.
This whole assembly can then be glued in, after a few dry runs to get the feel of where it should go. It is possible to see through the bridge pin holes when the assembly is beneath it, then by the experience and judgement gained from the dry runs the assembly can be moved forward the correct distance and firmly held with one finger on each transducer until the glue is quite set. (Rubber glove essential!)
I have also done installations on several pinless bridge guitars by drilling a small hole at the outer extremes of the saddle slot and inserting a bit of bent paperclip (or short length of guitar string +ball end )which can then be felt inside the guitar as an aid to positioning.
I have never bothered to remove the Blutak or the card.
Do put cling wrap or something over the guitar body to protect it - Superglue is not something you want on your guitar top if you can help it. Gel glue is unlikely to drip, but it is surprising how easy it can be to transfer it to unwanted places unwittingly.
I do like the sound - not perfect by any means, but improved with some eq esp to the mids - sometimes drastically. But the sound quality per pound ratio is excellent, as is the lack of extraneous gubbins inside the guitar. A decent preamp ( I prefer Orchid, but K&K ones work OK too, as do most popular preamps; even a Boss eq pedal can work well) helps hugely, whether playing via combo or mixing desk to PA.
My favourite thing about them is their response to playing dynamics, and the lack of harshness at the front of notes.
I have never felt the need to remove any and so cannot comment on the ease or otherwise of this!
Keith
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Post by andyhowell on Sept 6, 2017 9:20:51 GMT
I just love these threads about K&K :-) I'm not knocked out by the sound but then no pickup is going to be perfect. Increasingly I just want something that will get me through and sound reasonable. In my view a good preamp — like an Orchid or Headway — is more important for shaping the sound. Last summer my main guitar was having some work done it. I did a gig using my old Martin J40 _ the first time it had been out in over 15 years. This had a standard Fishman USt installed when I bought it (nearly 30 years ago). The sound guy was was using his own PA which he knew back to front. The guitar sounded fabulous! My main guitar has a Headway pickup in which I feel is a pretty good compromise. Today, if I was installing it I would go down the Rare Earth blend route or (even the new Mimesis Kudos system from Mike Vandem who designed the Rare Earth). Over the last couple of years this has been the best sounding pickup I have heard in live environments. It is expensive but probably worth it if sound quality rather than simplicity is your main goal. Those who use the Rare Earth ( Riverman , Amit ) report the same experience I have when blending a mic with a pick up. You don't need too much mic in the blend to make a really big difference. I'd be inclined to wire the Rare Earth so that it send a stereo out to my preamp for individual channel adjustment there. But, if you are looking for a quick plug in and play the standard setup is probably better. This Rare earth system is the best I have heard recently by quite a margin. I was intending to do a workshop at Halifax on pickups and amplification but have aborted this year year. I shall be coming up on the train with only one guitar! Might see if I can do a You Tube video though.
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Post by Amit on Sept 6, 2017 9:31:31 GMT
I just love these threads about K&K :-) I'm not knocked out by the sound but then no pickup is going to be perfect. Increasingly I just want something that will get me through and sound reasonable. In my view a good preamp — like an Orchid or Headway — is more important for shaping the sound. Last summer my main guitar was having some work done it. I did a gig using my old Martin J40 _ the first time it had been out in over 15 years. This had a standard Fishman USt installed when I bought it (nearly 30 years ago). The sound guy was was using his own PA which he knew back to front. The guitar sounded fabulous! My main guitar has a Headway pickup in which I feel is a pretty good compromise. Today, if I was installing it I would go down the Rare Earth blend route or (even the new Mimesis Kudos system from Mike Vandem who designed the Rare Earth). Over the last couple of years this has been the best sounding pickup I have heard in live environments. It is expensive but probably worth it if sound quality rather than simplicity is your main goal. Those who use the Rare Earth ( Riverman , Amit ) report the same experience I have when blending a mic with a pick up. You don't need too much mic in the blend to make a really big difference. I'd be inclined to wire the Rare Earth so that it send a stereo out to my preamp for individual channel adjustment there. But, if you are looking for a quick plug in and play the standard setup is probably better. This Rare earth system is the best I have heard recently by quite a margin. I was intending to do a workshop at Halifax on pickups and amplification but have aborted this year year. I shall be coming up on the train with only one guitar! Might see if I can do a You Tube video though. Yep I've used nothing else, it has a bit of 'bite' to it, which seems to suit my playing style, and as Andy says, just a little mic can make all the difference. I previously used an LR Baggs Para DI with it, but have recently just been sending it through an LR Baggs Session DI then straight into the PA, it's keeps things simple and the Session (although I have no idea how or why) makes it all sound really rather nice.
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Post by surfguy13 on Sept 6, 2017 10:47:41 GMT
These replies have just been SO helpful! The link to Cavalier Pikcups that Riverman supplied was incredibly helpful, by far and away the best explanation of how to install that I've seen. Most of the videos are very poor quality and don't really end up being that helpful but the series of excellent photos were just perfect. Really appreciate your comments Keith, they compliment the advice supplied by Cavalier Pickups and include a couple more handy tips. I feel a great deal more confident about installing a K@K now! Also very much appreciate your thoughts on the sound too as, having never used a K&K before, I was a little unsure. Likewise, Andy's comments were incredibly helpful too. I have always used a preamp with acoustic pickups, particularly passive pickups, and yet I wasn't too sure whether to go for an internal preamp with the pickup or just stick with an external. It sounds as if the K&K is pretty transparent and therefore needs that added control over dynamics that you have with a decent preamp. I've never tried any system that includes an internal mike and that's an interesting concept too. I guess it's down to how you use the guitar and as I don't play out now it's 90% 'at home' so for me it would be a combination of using a condenser mike and an internal pickup with an external preamp. What is complicating the decision slightly more is that the pickup is intended for a newly acquired guitar and a format that I'm not familiar with. I've gone for a slope shouldered 12 fret D (spruce/rosewood) and so am really still getting to know the guitar even though I gelled with the guitar almost instantly which is rare for me. Thanks once again for all the helpful advice and comments. Good to get so much positive feedback!
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colins
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Post by colins on Sept 6, 2017 11:01:16 GMT
I've put a number of these in to guitars over the years. I have made a jig of my own so that I install all three at the same time, using the two outside pin holes as guides, this means that you can use the bluetac to fix the transducers accurately to the jig with the jig on top of the bridge ensuring that the placement is perfectly aligned with the saddle, add the glue and then from the inside feed the guides rods through the pin holes and push the jig with the transducers up in to place. I say jig, but really its just a flat strip of wood (I am classy so I used BRW) with a hole drilled at each end with a thin dowel that is an interference fit.
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Post by ocarolan on Sept 6, 2017 11:25:27 GMT
... I say jig, but really its just a flat strip of wood (I am classy so I used BRW)...... That's real class is that, Colin - definitely a step up from my strip of card. Mind you, it tends to be real Kellogg's card! Keith
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Post by Vinny on Sept 6, 2017 15:51:07 GMT
I've fitted a few using exact same method as Keith. Brazilian rosewood jig too posh for me! The last one I installed didn't come with glue and you apparently have to use the right type. I put one in a jumbo Lowden (pinless bridge so drilled as per Keith's instuctions) but it never sounded great. I have never attempted removal. One I put in a Jumbo Guild is quite good and one in an Avalon auditorium is really good. I'm now tempted by the recommendations for the rare earth blend. Does the mic have such a big influence? I have a Guild dread with D-TAR pickup with mic and the mic is feedback prone.
Vinny
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Post by andyhowell on Sept 7, 2017 18:09:35 GMT
The mic in the Rare Earth does make a big difference. As we said, just a little in the blend makes a big difference. As you blend the signal in the guitar your preamp eqs the blended signal.
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