|
Post by gsans on Feb 3, 2021 16:03:34 GMT
Looking to hear people's thoughts/experiences of internal mics.
I'm after an internal mic to blend with the K&K Pure Mini that I already have in my guitar.
One option is the K&K Trinity upgrade (which is just wiring a K&K gooseneck mic to the existing output jack), so if anyone has experience then I'd love to hear from you!
Over on AGF there's a few threads where a number of people recommend the DPA 4061 in combination with the Pure Mini - again, I don't have any experience of that but interested if anyone here has tried it.
So if you have any suggestions for internal mics let me know!
Thanks,
George
|
|
|
Post by dshevy on Feb 3, 2021 21:22:35 GMT
Hey George,
Though I have moved towards a good undersaddle and preamp because its more versatile and 5 guitars would need 4061’s which I could use to get another guitar built.
My main stage guitar has an M1 in the soundhole and a DPA 4061 but with an XLR drilled through the tail block. Dave King, who made the guitar, built a little bracket that screwed into the end block. I could then run 2 cables to a mixing preamp for better control. It’s basically a copy of what Chris Wood was using in his David Oddy Guitars.
As long as you can get phantom power to the mic you could avoid a second input. The DPA sounds amazing and helps give a really rich sound.
To be fair I owned a guitar with a K&K and through a Headway EDB preamp, it sounded almost as good, its just the possibility of feedback I personally didn’t like or the idea of having to remover them once superglued to the bridge plate.
I’m sure Roger Bucknall has done similar stuff for the guitars he’s built for Martin Simpson and could work out a solution.
Regards David
|
|
|
Post by andyhowell on Feb 4, 2021 11:19:07 GMT
[Over on AGF there's a few threads where a number of people recommend the DPA 4061]
Careful and watch your mental health qhgen reading AGF :-)
I tend to think David is on to a point. I suspect when using a mic the quality of the preamp is most important, possbly more important than the mic itself. Many happily use the K&K internal mic. These days (well those days I suppose) I have been happier to use the Tonedexter emulation which is very good without the risks of feedback.
I also have a Headway preamp and have used it to blend an outdoor mic and the pickup — this can sound wonderful but Headway themselves don't recommend an in-guitar mic and they might have a point. A preamp like the Felix allows you to properly eq both channels (and to high pass) but then that is one hell of an expensive preamp! The best thing about the Tonedexter is that your more or less plug into the PA/mixer and play.
I seem to remember Martin Simpson blends his Highlander under saddle pickups with a MacIntyre Feather — I've seen this referred to as some kind of PRS pickup but it is essentially the Feather. Simpson's amplified tone has always been exceptionally btuthe last few times I've seen him it sounded quite off — no idea why.
|
|
|
Post by jackorion on Feb 4, 2021 11:45:46 GMT
Hey,
I use a K&K Pure Mini and an internal DPA 4061 in two guitars - a Collings and a Martin.
I have the DPA wired directly to the ring on the stereo jack that came with the K&K - I power the DPA via my Felix preamp which provides the 12v on the ring signal, and then allows me to separate out the stereo signal to the individual channels and EQ appropriately. I can then blend and send one output to the PA via XLR or to an amp via the amp output.
The K&K on it's own just sound pretty good but I found adding the DPA made a big difference - particularly in the top end. The combination of the two gives me a solid low end from the K&K and the 'directness' that a pickup brings throughout the rest of the range, but the air of a mic.
I managed to pick up both my DPAs for under £100 by keeping an eye on eBay - one had a broken cable (so it was only 18 inches long - more than enough to fit in a guitar!) and the other was covered in makeup and hair dye from being used onstage (but it's inside my guitar so who cares?) - also the beige or brown ones tend to be cheaper than the black ones for some reason...
|
|
|
Post by jackorion on Feb 4, 2021 11:47:45 GMT
I think Amit uses the K&K trinity system? I believe there is a power limit built into the K&K mic now so you can't use it with other preamps...
|
|
|
Post by dshevy on Feb 4, 2021 12:07:51 GMT
Hey, I use a K&K Pure Mini and an internal DPA 4061 in two guitars - a Collings and a Martin. I have the DPA wired directly to the ring on the stereo jack that came with the K&K - I power the DPA via my Felix preamp which provides the 12v on the ring signal, and then allows me to separate out the stereo signal to the individual channels and EQ appropriately. I can then blend and send one output to the PA via XLR or to an amp via the amp output. The K&K on it's own just sound pretty good but I found adding the DPA made a big difference - particularly in the top end. The combination of the two gives me a solid low end from the K&K and the 'directness' that a pickup brings throughout the rest of the range, but the air of a mic. I managed to pick up both my DPAs for under £100 by keeping an eye on eBay - one had a broken cable (so it was only 18 inches long - more than enough to fit in a guitar!) and the other was covered in makeup and hair dye from being used onstage (but it's inside my guitar so who cares?) - also the beige or brown ones tend to be cheaper than the black ones for some reason... Hey Ben, I always stayed clear because the DPA 6061's on ebay always had LEMO connectors where they'd been used on stage with power packs. Out if interest, was this the same for those that you brought? i ask because you might know whether they can be converted back to their MciroDot connector for a regular XLR? Regards David.
|
|
|
Post by jackorion on Feb 4, 2021 12:46:30 GMT
Hey, I use a K&K Pure Mini and an internal DPA 4061 in two guitars - a Collings and a Martin. I have the DPA wired directly to the ring on the stereo jack that came with the K&K - I power the DPA via my Felix preamp which provides the 12v on the ring signal, and then allows me to separate out the stereo signal to the individual channels and EQ appropriately. I can then blend and send one output to the PA via XLR or to an amp via the amp output. The K&K on it's own just sound pretty good but I found adding the DPA made a big difference - particularly in the top end. The combination of the two gives me a solid low end from the K&K and the 'directness' that a pickup brings throughout the rest of the range, but the air of a mic. I managed to pick up both my DPAs for under £100 by keeping an eye on eBay - one had a broken cable (so it was only 18 inches long - more than enough to fit in a guitar!) and the other was covered in makeup and hair dye from being used onstage (but it's inside my guitar so who cares?) - also the beige or brown ones tend to be cheaper than the black ones for some reason... Hey Ben, I always stayed clear because the DPA 6061's on ebay always had LEMO connectors where they'd been used on stage with power packs. Out if interest, was this the same for those that you brought? i ask because you might know whether they can be converted back to their MciroDot connector for a regular XLR? Regards David. I don't know the technicalities on that but I would imagine it's just a case of cutting off the LEMO and rewiring to the Microdot? For mine I had a tech remove the connector which was on there and wire the hot to the ring and the ground to the sleeve of the stereo jack... Technically there's probably a little bit of crossover between the DPA and K&K happening down my stereo cable but I change the phase and combine the signals anyway so I don't think that matter... plus it sounds good!
|
|
|
Post by Amit on Feb 5, 2021 14:03:09 GMT
I think Amit uses the K&K trinity system? I believe there is a power limit built into the K&K mic now so you can't use it with other preamps... I do yep, and there is a power limit which means I have to use the K&K preamp, but I then go from that to an LR Baggs para for some more EQ. I’ve got this setup in 2 of my guitars, one doesn’t need much EQ after the K&K preamp, one needs a lot. But in both cases they sound fab, and the mic brings out the top end and adds some air. In my experience, only adding a small amount of the mic is enough, too much and it all begins to sound a little thin.
|
|
|
Post by gsans on Feb 5, 2021 15:03:21 GMT
Hey George, Though I have moved towards a good undersaddle and preamp because its more versatile and 5 guitars would need 4061’s which I could use to get another guitar built. My main stage guitar has an M1 in the soundhole and a DPA 4061 but with an XLR drilled through the tail block. Dave King, who made the guitar, built a little bracket that screwed into the end block. I could then run 2 cables to a mixing preamp for better control. It’s basically a copy of what Chris Wood was using in his David Oddy Guitars. As long as you can get phantom power to the mic you could avoid a second input. The DPA sounds amazing and helps give a really rich sound. To be fair I owned a guitar with a K&K and through a Headway EDB preamp, it sounded almost as good, its just the possibility of feedback I personally didn’t like or the idea of having to remover them once superglued to the bridge plate. I’m sure Roger Bucknall has done similar stuff for the guitars he’s built for Martin Simpson and could work out a solution. Regards David Thanks David, really helpful to hear your thoughts. Thankfully only looking to get this setup on one or maybe 2 instruments so that's a bit more manageable! Good to know that you've had a good experience with the 4061! Yes I'll mention it to Roger and as you say I'm sure he'll have some ideas. Thanks! George
|
|
|
Post by gsans on Feb 5, 2021 15:08:56 GMT
[Over on AGF there's a few threads where a number of people recommend the DPA 4061] Careful and watch your mental health qhgen reading AGF :-) I tend to think David is on to a point. I suspect when using a mic the quality of the preamp is most important, possbly more important than the mic itself. Many happily use the K&K internal mic. These days (well those days I suppose) I have been happier to use the Tonedexter emulation which is very good without the risks of feedback. I also have a Headway preamp and have used it to blend an outdoor mic and the pickup — this can sound wonderful but Headway themselves don't recommend an in-guitar mic and they might have a point. A preamp like the Felix allows you to properly eq both channels (and to high pass) but then that is one hell of an expensive preamp! The best thing about the Tonedexter is that your more or less plug into the PA/mixer and play. I seem to remember Martin Simpson blends his Highlander under saddle pickups with a MacIntyre Feather — I've seen this referred to as some kind of PRS pickup but it is essentially the Feather. Simpson's amplified tone has always been exceptionally btuthe last few times I've seen him it sounded quite off — no idea why. Hi Andy Yes have to be careful over there! Thanks, I tried the Tonedexter last year but didn't get on particularly well with it - I can definitely see how it would work if you're someone who has some nice mics and doesn't mind a bit of trial and error. Yes I was looking in the manual for the new EDB2 HE and saw that Headway actively advise against internal mics. Not going to let that put me off though as I've had good results in the past with them. That's interesting to hear, not heard Martin Simpson live recently. Thanks! George
|
|
|
Post by gsans on Feb 5, 2021 15:13:01 GMT
Hey, I use a K&K Pure Mini and an internal DPA 4061 in two guitars - a Collings and a Martin. I have the DPA wired directly to the ring on the stereo jack that came with the K&K - I power the DPA via my Felix preamp which provides the 12v on the ring signal, and then allows me to separate out the stereo signal to the individual channels and EQ appropriately. I can then blend and send one output to the PA via XLR or to an amp via the amp output. The K&K on it's own just sound pretty good but I found adding the DPA made a big difference - particularly in the top end. The combination of the two gives me a solid low end from the K&K and the 'directness' that a pickup brings throughout the rest of the range, but the air of a mic. I managed to pick up both my DPAs for under £100 by keeping an eye on eBay - one had a broken cable (so it was only 18 inches long - more than enough to fit in a guitar!) and the other was covered in makeup and hair dye from being used onstage (but it's inside my guitar so who cares?) - also the beige or brown ones tend to be cheaper than the black ones for some reason... Thanks for posting here, good to hear of someone who has that setup! That sounds exactly like what I'd be after to be honest. I've always thought having some of that "directness" from the K&K is a big benefit live, particularly in a band situation. And to be honest would want to avoid loads of mic on the low end for feedback reasons too. Thanks for the tip, I'll keep an eye out online for them. Really appreciate the help! Cheers, George
|
|
|
Post by jackorion on Feb 5, 2021 15:15:55 GMT
Hey, I use a K&K Pure Mini and an internal DPA 4061 in two guitars - a Collings and a Martin. I have the DPA wired directly to the ring on the stereo jack that came with the K&K - I power the DPA via my Felix preamp which provides the 12v on the ring signal, and then allows me to separate out the stereo signal to the individual channels and EQ appropriately. I can then blend and send one output to the PA via XLR or to an amp via the amp output. The K&K on it's own just sound pretty good but I found adding the DPA made a big difference - particularly in the top end. The combination of the two gives me a solid low end from the K&K and the 'directness' that a pickup brings throughout the rest of the range, but the air of a mic. I managed to pick up both my DPAs for under £100 by keeping an eye on eBay - one had a broken cable (so it was only 18 inches long - more than enough to fit in a guitar!) and the other was covered in makeup and hair dye from being used onstage (but it's inside my guitar so who cares?) - also the beige or brown ones tend to be cheaper than the black ones for some reason... Thanks for posting here, good to hear of someone who has that setup! That sounds exactly like what I'd be after to be honest. I've always thought having some of that "directness" from the K&K is a big benefit live, particularly in a band situation. And to be honest would want to avoid loads of mic on the low end for feedback reasons too. Thanks for the tip, I'll keep an eye out online for them. Really appreciate the help! Cheers, George I use the HPF on the Felix on the mic up at about 200hz I think... it cuts out all the 'boom' and I don't tend to get feedback... if anything I find the K&K is more likely to feedback at the low end (but I can notch that out with the Felix too)...
|
|
|
Post by gsans on Feb 5, 2021 15:17:20 GMT
I think Amit uses the K&K trinity system? I believe there is a power limit built into the K&K mic now so you can't use it with other preamps... I do yep, and there is a power limit which means I have to use the K&K preamp, but I then go from that to an LR Baggs para for some more EQ. I’ve got this setup in 2 of my guitars, one doesn’t need much EQ after the K&K preamp, one needs a lot. But in both cases they sound fab, and the mic brings out the top end and adds some air. In my experience, only adding a small amount of the mic is enough, too much and it all begins to sound a little thin. Thanks Amit and jackorion, that's really useful to know. Not too keen on the idea of the power limit/being tied to one preamp - I hadn't spotted this on the K&K site or anything and was considering getting the K&K mic to use with a different preamp so I'm really glad you pointed this out. Good to hear that you've got a good sound from an internal mic though, your description is exactly what I'm aiming for. Looks like it might be the DPA for me then - thanks for your help everyone. Cheers! George
|
|
|
Post by gsans on Feb 5, 2021 15:25:39 GMT
That makes sense... I've been searching for Felix alternatives - which are thin on the ground, as it's got all the features you need to have a good blending system. But to be honest I think it might be time to save up and bite the bullet. Looks like it's about the best option for blending, and the HPF seems like it would be perfect. Thanks Ben, might message you for any tips if I do end up going down the 4061/Felix route, which seems like the best option. Cheers!
|
|
|
Post by jackorion on Feb 5, 2021 15:28:28 GMT
That makes sense... I've been searching for Felix alternatives - which are thin on the ground, as it's got all the features you need to have a good blending system. But to be honest I think it might be time to save up and bite the bullet. Looks like it's about the best option for blending, and the HPF seems like it would be perfect. Thanks Ben, might message you for any tips if I do end up going down the 4061/Felix route, which seems like the best option. Cheers! Feel free to send me a message at any time with any questions... It took me a little while to bite the bullet with the Felix (it is pricey) but I've used it at every gig since (well apart from the ones where I only used a mic) and it's never let me down and I can't see anything that would replace it - it's a lifetime piece of gear as far as I'm concerned...
|
|