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Post by Onechordtrick on Mar 16, 2021 12:16:03 GMT
It’s only recently that I’ve come to realise the value of theory. At one point, thanks to school music lessons I could tell you how many sharps or flats in each key but had no idea why they were used.
Similarly musical appreciation was reading a score whilst a record was played, the needle would be lifted and we had to know which four we were on. Nearly put me off classical music for life!
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Post by andyhowell on Mar 16, 2021 12:23:22 GMT
I'm not against music theory but I think there is a certain tyranny I am kicking against. One of the features of today is that a lot of people are learning an instrument when retiring or during the pandemic. This is a brilliant thing but understndably look to these bogus sites as if they would when learning DIY techniques! They are being duped. I shall now go on to annoy even more people. A lot of this thinking comes from the world of Classical Guitar where notation and theory are somewhat more rigid than in other forms. What all this stuff misses is that key component — soul! You can see this problem in the classical world. You can easily find people with stunning technique and yet the music is lacking and doesn't move you. Putting soul and feel into the music seems as massive a challenge as following the dots. It is why I always preferred Julian Bream to Joh Williams. For Bream had more soul. The same thing has been transferred over to the world of fingerstyle guitar to some extent. It is pretty easy to find people with stunning technique and speed but who leave you totally cold. Much of this I blame on Stefan Grossman an man who has helped millions through his introductory tab groups but who creates chaos through his many theories and observations. He may have studied with The Reverend himself (and others) but for me he has no soul whereas his girlfriend at the time Rory Block has soul in bucket loads. He played often with John Renbourn a man who — while not having Gary david next door — still managed to play with soul. One of the worst gigs I ever saw was a solo gig of Stefan's. Teh front two rows were full of men eagerly studying every finger movement on the fret board. Grief it was turgidly boring. For me many of the best guitarists do not have blindingly complicated tehcnique. And where they do — think michaelwatts — they suceed by having extraordinary touch and taste — search out his Hi Lab videos. Call it soul. Call it mojo. You ain't gonna get it from any old pretentious YouTuber ... [FX: off to find a dark room]
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Post by martinrowe on Mar 16, 2021 12:33:46 GMT
Does anyone know what Dylan was on about in Chronicles. I think he says he got the theory from Lonnie Johnson. Something about playing songs with only 3rds and 7ths if I remember correctly - I could well be wrong though - this has been known?
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Post by andyhowell on Mar 16, 2021 12:35:59 GMT
Does anyone know what Dylan was on about in Chronicles. I think he says he got the theory from Lonnie Johnson. Something about playing songs with only 3rds and 7ths if I remember correctly - I could well be wrong though - this has been known? He certainly did this. So do most players who use these alternate tunings. It would probabnly be a mistake to believe much in Chronicles was that true !!
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Post by martinrowe on Mar 16, 2021 12:37:51 GMT
Was he talking about tunings? How do you know what was true?
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Post by andyhowell on Mar 16, 2021 13:07:57 GMT
Was he talking about tunings? How do you know what was true? He wasn't talking about the tunings I don't think. But I've heard him make this comment about the chords a few times before. I'm not sure he really folowed this himslef but the difference between a G and a G7 chord does have possibilitites.
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Post by martinrowe on Mar 16, 2021 13:32:52 GMT
I always thought he was referring to a scale and the original video in this post brought it to mind. He seemed to me to be referring to the way he sang, not sure though, which is why I thought someone on here might know - not too good on absolutes. Where have you seen the comment about the chords - is it a video? What do you mean by possibilities?
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Post by andyhowell on Mar 16, 2021 14:55:23 GMT
I always thought he was referring to a scale and the original video in this post brought it to mind. He seemed to me to be referring to the way he sang, not sure though, which is why I thought someone on here might know - not too good on absolutes. Where have you seen the comment about the chords - is it a video? What do you mean by possibilities? No video just comments I've read over the years in interviews. I think he was just talking about his general approach to songs — I'm pretty sure he didn't worry about these intervals when singing :-)
As ever, Bob i always intersting if seldom that informative!
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Post by PistolPete on Mar 16, 2021 15:29:41 GMT
If anyone is interested in learning about music theory via YouTube, I can recommend 12Tone and Adam Neely as informative & witty hosts, if still sometimes rather quickly spoken!
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Post by andyhowell on Mar 16, 2021 17:59:19 GMT
PistolPete It's three chords and the truth, but I guess the issue is which three chords !
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Post by jonnymosco on Mar 16, 2021 19:44:43 GMT
You need to know the rules to break them!
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Post by NikGnashers on Mar 16, 2021 20:43:35 GMT
I didn't even make it to the end of the title :-)
Each to their own, and I know understanding music theory will make anyone a better player, but I just wasn't interested when I had to do modules on it for my A.N.D. in music tech. I think composers need to know a certain amount of theory, maybe not so much players, but personally plenty of great song writers and guitar players have just taught themselves by ear, and done alright !
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Post by vikingblues on Mar 16, 2021 21:38:07 GMT
Yes - theory taught well, and when geared up to how it improves music is great - I've benefited from such theory myself. There's an amazing buzz to be had from a big breakthrough when well taught theory suddenly advances your understanding of and playing of music. Theory taught badly, or as some rigid structure that allows no interpretation and feeling through music - now, that might not make you a worse player, but it can sure as hell discourage you! I suspect that quite a lot of forum members will have at some time been put off pursuing a particular musical avenue or style due to this. The point by PistolPete on descriptive and prescriptive music theory is excellent. I so wish music theory would always be descriptive in its delivery ..... but taught badly (and a hell of a lot of it is) it can be way too prescriptive, and that can result in a huge amount of dislike and antagonism towards theory by those with the misfortune to be on the receiving end. We can maybe blame the bad teaching at least as much as the inadequate student for theory-phobia. Mark
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Post by vikingblues on Mar 16, 2021 21:53:04 GMT
Putting soul and feel into the music seems as massive a challenge as following the dots. It is why I always preferred Julian Bream to Joh Williams. For Bream had more soul. When I was getting classical guitar lessons I was told by the teacher that Andres Segovia was WRONG and specifically that rubato has no place in classical guitar playing. Any deviation from a metronomic playing of the notes would be met with negativity.
Look on any classical guitar forum and you'll see this anti-Segovia stuff perpetuated. For goodness sake, the rubato is an interpretation device - he used it - get over it.
I regret that I didn't say the teacher would probably not be earning money giving classical guitar lessons if Segovia hadn't made the instrument so popular in the first place. After all I was paying them money for the privilege of hearing this from them.
I also regret that I didn't wait till a touch of RSI stopped me going to lessons temporarily, before I decided not to go back again. Since when my urge to explore that musical world has gone, never to return. That's discouragement!
Mark
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Post by jonnymosco on Mar 17, 2021 21:11:45 GMT
When I was getting classical guitar lessons I was told by the teacher that Andres Segovia was WRONG and specifically that rubato has no place in classical guitar playing. Any deviation from a metronomic playing of the notes would be met with negativity.
Look on any classical guitar forum and you'll see this anti-Segovia stuff perpetuated. For goodness sake, the rubato is an interpretation device - he used it - get over it.
I know Segovia was criticized for using rubato when playing Bach (rightly so), he played everything as if it were Romantic. And apparently he used rubato for the tricky bits! Jonny
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