davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Aug 15, 2013 15:44:57 GMT
In a previous thread on Sobells I promised Kym (scripsit) that I would do some recording comparisons with Jonny M's Sobell Martin Simpson model and some similar sized guitars I have and I finally got around to it today' The guitars are all European spruce tops with Rosewood back and sides (one is Bubinga which is not a rosewood but very close tonally. The guitars are: Sobell Martin Simpson model - Euro spruce/Brazilian Rosewood De Faoite "Lughnasa" - Euro spruce/East Indian Rosewood De Faoite "Buchaill Mhor" - Euro spruce/Bubinga McIlroy A30 - Euro spruce/East Indian Rosewood Here's a photo of the group - left to right: Sobell, Lughnasa, Buachaill Mhor, McIlroy I recorded a flat-pick/strumming and finger-style piece with each, all in DADGAD (of course ) using my Zoom H4n with each guitar recorded in the same position - flat EQ no added effects. The strings were as they came on each instrument - unfair to the McIlroy as the same strings have been on it for years . The flat-pick strummed piece is a tune written by Damiean Mullane and taught to me by Ed Boyd, and the fingerstyle pice is the intro and A part of my composition "The Lorne Sausage Waltz". So here we go: Flatpick/strum: SobellLugnasaBuachaill MhorMcIlroyFingerstyle: SobellLugnasaBuachaill MhorMcIlroyHope this is of use/interest.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Aug 15, 2013 16:09:22 GMT
It certainly is of interest Dave - good work. Lovely pic, but although some differences are audible, my laptop speakers obviously aren't doing the recordings/guitars justice so I'll listen again later on something better before commenting I think! I did have a clear preference though - wonder if it will stay the same on more critical listening?!
Keith
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Post by rodders on Aug 15, 2013 16:11:31 GMT
I've just listened to the Fingerpicked comparisons, and they all produce a beautiful sound. Of all of them, I think I preferred the Lugnasa, it seems to have a bit more clarity without sounding too 'spiky' (that makes sense to me). The Sobell sounds sharp and clear, quite clinical. The Buachil Mhor is very grand sounding - like a harp being played in a small room. The McIlroy would be the sound I would normally be looking for if choosing a guitar for myself. It is a little quieter (could be the strings?) but it sounds how a guitar should sound in my head Very nicely done Dave
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Post by earwighoney on Aug 15, 2013 20:17:59 GMT
Very interesting sets of soundclips. Thanks for posting it Dave.
The differences seem a lot more apparent when the guitars are played with a pick than fingerpicked.
When it came to the fingerpicking for the clips posted, all the guitars sounded not a million miles apart, which I believe is down to Dave's fine guitar playing more than anything else! (also the fact they are all excellent guitars too, IMO the differences are not as important as the playing)
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Post by Mike Floorstand on Aug 15, 2013 21:36:50 GMT
Fascinating set of recordings thanks for doing these Dave.
The Sobell sounds pure and bright, the Lughnasa more airy and colourful. Buachaill Mhor sounded like a cross between the two. The McIlroy maybe has the most warmth - could be the strings, or age of the instrument?
All very fine sounding guitars!
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Post by scripsit on Aug 15, 2013 23:55:24 GMT
Wow! I certainly appreciate the effort you've made here, Dave.
I've only got crappy headphones here at work, so I'll have a proper listen at home on decent speakers over the weekend. I've been doing some comparison listening to favorite CD tracks in my DAW through the monitor speakers, trying to get more of a handle on the mixing and editing that's in tunes that sound 'good' to my ears, so I might lift these across, too.
First comment after running through the tracks here would be that the Sobell and your two guitars sound like they are part of the same family, with the McIlroy off on a different branch. I don't think it is just ancient strings: the McIlroy sounds darker and a bit more 'wooly'. The other three have a more authorative brightness (upper mid?).
Thanks again for going to this effort. Good playing, too.
Kym
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Post by ocarolan on Aug 16, 2013 0:08:24 GMT
After a proper listen it's definitely a case of yes, they all sound jolly nice. Differences listening to those pieces are not huge. Hard to analyse why, but I'll try.
On the flatpicked portion there were individual notes that were fuller on other guitars, especially lower ones, but Lughnasa was the one for me that seemed to have the most similar quality and evenness of tone to the notes top to bottom. Not a v good explanation I know! The Sobell in particular had a striking difference on the recording with the basses sounding waaaay fuller and more rounded than the trebles.
The strummed part on these clips wasn't as strikingly different, but the balance of the notes from Lughnasa was superb - nothing dominated, neither top, nor middle, nor bottom - each clearly audible.
The fingerpicked clips were really interesting, though, for me , Lughnasa was my favourite as, again, it seemed to have the most even balance of tone across treble, middle and bass. The McIlroy was also excellent in this respect despite it's ancient strings. The Sobell and Buachaill Mhor were less thick in the treble, less prominent in the middle and fuller in the bass to my ears.
All great sounds to me as a listener, and any preference is purely my personal taste.
(As a player though, not only do things sound different from "out front", but the tactile sense of how the notes are produced/modified/manipulated is actually quite a big part of what I perceive as the "sound" when I'm playing. I have actually played each of the instruments involved, though not "back to back" for any length of time, and not analytically, but I often find that differences to me as a player are more pronounced as the tactile thing becomes involved.)
Keith
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Post by jonnymosco on Aug 16, 2013 0:11:31 GMT
Great set of recordings and playing Dave. The Sobell's spruce looks lime green in the photo in comparison with your wooden coloured guitars!
Shame the Kostal's not with you, that would have been an interesting comparison.
From the recordings my impressions are that Dave's guitars sound great even in comparison with the Sobell and it's not a dud. I'm looking forward to looking after the Lughnasa when I'm back, it has a lot of similarities with the Sobell and is an awe-inspiring guitar. The Big Boy has more in common with the Kostal.
From the recordings, they all sound fantastic. The Big Boy stands out as having a full-on bass, the McCilroy as being mellow and warm (maybe the strings). The overtones of your two and the Sobell are impressive. If I knew about your guitars before I bought the Sobell I'd definitely have gone to you first.
Thanks for doing the recordings, really interesting.
Jonny
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Aug 16, 2013 7:35:56 GMT
I think there is a limited amount you can get out of doing recordings like these. On a different day things may sound a little different. Also if a good player has a group of guitars like these for a long enough period of time they will adapt their playing style to each instrument to best bring out the sound they want. Which brings things nicely to the end of Keith's post which is very apt - you can only really judge for yourself with the guitar in your hands as the relationship between player and instrument is an "alchemistic" and symbiotic one.
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Aug 16, 2013 8:38:21 GMT
I've just listened to the Fingerpicked comparisons, and they all produce a beautiful sound. Of all of them, I think I preferred the Lugnasa, it seems to have a bit more clarity without sounding too 'spiky' (that makes sense to me). The Sobell sounds sharp and clear, quite clinical. The Buachil Mhor is very grand sounding - like a harp being played in a small room. The McIlroy would be the sound I would normally be looking for if choosing a guitar for myself. It is a little quieter (could be the strings?) but it sounds how a guitar should sound in my head Very nicely done Dave I agree with Ross here entirely - nothing to add Phil
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Post by andrewjw on Aug 16, 2013 10:48:36 GMT
Lovely recordings and fine playing Dave.. Listening on phones I'd agree with Keith's thoughts on the Lughnasa ...even balance across the strings and clear but warm tones on the mids and trebles. I thought the McIlroy was very similar...a fabulous sound particularly given the age of the strings. For me either of those two would make a perfect all rounder...excellent for both instrumentals and vocal accompaniment too. Both the Sobell and the Buachaill Mhor sounded marvellous with crystal clarity at the top end but with less warmth to my ears...I'd imagine they'd be less forgiving to lesser players! Really interesting post...
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Post by andyhowell on Aug 16, 2013 11:07:20 GMT
Thanks very much for that Dave. As somebody (still) thinking of commissioning a guitar this was useful. I switched on my good ears and listened through my studio monitors. And this is my take on it! I was predominantly listening as a fingerstyle player, although did listen to the flat pick/strums as well.
Sobell
This confirms what I have always thought about Sobell. At its best this is a very classy sound with a lot of under-stated depth to it. However, I have always found Sobell's have to be drive quite hard and consistently to get that sound — which is undeniably good. You could hear this in your clips. I wasn't quite sure about the fingerstyle sound but the flat pick sound was far clearer.
Most people know Sobell through Martin Simpson's work. Simpson is a genius and someone who plays very hard with the aid of acrylic nails. I play with a mixture of nail and finger and have never thought that quite right whenever I have played a Sobell. Maybe another interesting player to seek out is American Darrell Scott who plays a Sobell Simpson model — there are some clips of this on You Tube. Scott plays a mixture of flat pick and fingestyle, not unlike Richard Thompson in many ways. Even when using just his fingers he really hammers the instrument and makes it sing. regardless of comparative technique I can't do that!
Lugnasa
I agree with this. I really appreciated this guitar, lovely over tones and a very complex tone. I didn't thin it worked as well for flatpicking but a fingerstyle dream. I must come down and talk to you ....
Buachaill Mhor
This didn't quite work for me in either styles, but it maybe that I am just too far away from a dreadnaught. in preference. It reminds me of my Martin J40 which is a beast of a guitar — this is great for ragtime stuff and maybe this would to my ears suit this guitar better.
McIlroy A30
The first time that I have heard one of these and I was quite impressed. I much prefer this sound to Lowden's. As I expected this sounded superb flatpicked and strummed.
For me the two I would audition seriously would be the Lugnasa (you have done a great job there) and the Mcillroy.
As I get older am I tending towards smaller bodied guitars that are more lightly built. I haven't found for one moment that guitars like this are deficient in sustain — especially when made well.
I really would like to play the Lugnasa in the flesh. Love the fan fret as well.
Thanks again.
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Aug 16, 2013 14:50:11 GMT
LugnasaI really appreciated this guitar, lovely over tones and a very complex tone. I didn't thin it worked as well for flatpicking but a fingerstyle dream. I must come down and talk to you .... I really would like to play the Lugnasa in the flesh. Love the fan fret as well. Andy, You are welcome to visit anytime but if you want to play Lughnasa I suspect that you might have to go to Oxford after early September I bought the McIlroy in Dublin in 2001 - Serial number 5 - and also have a small guitar/bouzouki Dermot made - Serial No 11. I got to meet Dermot when I was over working in Ireland then - lovely man and nice instruments. Bound to have some Lowden DNA given his background but the sound is different. I sold my two Lowdens but have kept the McIlroys.
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Post by andyhowell on Aug 16, 2013 17:05:15 GMT
I'll get round to coming down at some point Dave, but don't wait it just yet!
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Post by grayn on Aug 16, 2013 17:34:15 GMT
I liked the McIlroy. Not better, just more to my liking, particularly when fingerpicked.
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