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Post by forestdweller on Aug 22, 2023 7:45:11 GMT
I had a charity gig at a local restaurant last weekend and, not for the first time, I was not very happy with my live sound. I used my Huss & Dalton with a k&k pickup into my prodipe natural 6 amp. The sound was really bad- brash, magnetic pickup sounding, weak 2nd and 5th strings.
Now, I know I probably aught to be using a preamp, but before I throw any money at this I am wondering if its the pickup or the amp? I mean the amp has a set of perfectly decent preamps surely?
I am wondering whether to go ahead and install a James May Ultratonic into the Brook I am borrowing (the owner is happy for me to do that). Its a great guitar to play but is not quite in the same league sonically as the H&D, though is probably the best guitar to use if I want one guitar to play in all the different tunings I use. But, the pickup is expensive and I don't know if I will still need a preamp.
Talking about preamps, there isn't an awful lot of choice in the UK, even less so if you have a k&k with its impedance issues. For instance, there is a very nice Fishman Aura Spectrum on reverb at the moment for £140, which I could probably just about afford, but it has 10M ohm impedance whereas the k&k requires 1M ohm. Those of you with k&ks what do you use to preamp? Anybody with a James May Ultratonic? Is it as good as they say? Anybody selling a decent preamp?
Robbie
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Post by PistolPete on Aug 22, 2023 9:28:29 GMT
I would suspect the impedance issue is what causes the K&K to not get along with your amp's preamp. Do you know anyone with an official K&K preamp so you can A/B it with & without to check? The most basic version of the official preamp isn't break-the-bank money, so I'd probably look at that first.
I use a RedEye Twin with my K&Ks & I'm pretty happy with it. I bought it mostly because it was the only K&K-specific one that let me do 2 into 1. I used a Fishman Platinum Stage when I first got them installed which was usable but underwhelming, mostly because of the impedance thing, I think.
Never used a James May Ultra Tonic, but after Googling them they seem to be a similar price point to a dual-source pickup, so I might be more inclined to look at those if I were in your shoes, but it does all come down to taste (I have Anthem SLs in two of my guitars and a Rare Earth Blend in another and IMHO they all give a more 'natural' sound than a K&K - though at greater expense and with more intrusive installation requirements)
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Post by forestdweller on Aug 22, 2023 16:44:48 GMT
I would suspect the impedance issue is what causes the K&K to not get along with your amp's preamp. Do you know anyone with an official K&K preamp so you can A/B it with & without to check? The most basic version of the official preamp isn't break-the-bank money, so I'd probably look at that first. I use a RedEye Twin with my K&Ks & I'm pretty happy with it. I bought it mostly because it was the only K&K-specific one that let me do 2 into 1. I used a Fishman Platinum Stage when I first got them installed which was usable but underwhelming, mostly because of the impedance thing, I think. Never used a James May Ultra Tonic, but after Googling them they seem to be a similar price point to a dual-source pickup, so I might be more inclined to look at those if I were in your shoes, but it does all come down to taste (I have Anthem SLs in two of my guitars and a Rare Earth Blend in another and IMHO they all give a more 'natural' sound than a K&K - though at greater expense and with more intrusive installation requirements) Thanks PistolPete. Can I just ask where you purchased the red eye from? It keeps coming up as a recommended preamp for the k&k. BTW the James May pickup was invented by the same guy who does the Tonedexter. Also, they do a k&k conversion kit, whereby they use an existing k&k pickup, add a couple more disks, a circuit board and a volume control, and bob's your uncle, apparently solving all the known issues with a k&k on its own. For anyone else interested my local guitar shop, Oasis music in Ringwood, are the UK distributors and installers. Robbie
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Post by PistolPete on Aug 22, 2023 17:00:48 GMT
Thanks PistolPete . Can I just ask where you purchased the red eye from? It keeps coming up as a recommended preamp for the k&k. I had to check my email history, but it looks like I ordered it from Thomann in 2018. The model I have is the "twin". I think Wild Violet uses one as well. As does Ray Wylie Hubbard!
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Post by ocarolan on Aug 22, 2023 17:40:20 GMT
I have a fair few K&K equipped instruments. IMHO the impedance issue largely springs from Forum discussions. I have no issues playing any of my guitars/mandolins/bouzouki either direct into a PA (not my favourite option but it's usually eq-able at the mixer), or my AER (yes, your amp will of course have a preamp). Either of these I may use with (or without) Baggs PADI (which is the one one most folk say is a no-no, but it's fine but fiddly) or K&K preamps (fine) or Orchid acoustic preamp (simply the best) or even a humble Boss eq pedal which will do the job quite nicely though can be a bit noisy if extreme boost/cut used (not usually needed).
Robbie, presumably you were sitting fairly close to your amp when playing. With my AER I find that the sound to me as a player isn't great if I'm close to the amp, but the outfront sound is just fine - it needs a bit of "air" to contribute to the sound. I usually position it 3 feet or so in front of me or a fair bit to one side Do you know what your amp sounds like to the punters? If not, have a wander round on a long lead and find out - you might be pleasantly surprised!
Keith
PS - Just in case - don't put your amp on the floor, even tilted up. Hard chair or similar is good.
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Post by Wild Violet on Aug 22, 2023 20:23:21 GMT
I had to check my email history, but it looks like I ordered it from Thomann in 2018. The model I have is the "twin". I think Wild Violet uses one as well. As does Ray Wylie Hubbard! This is the one I have (not the twin like Pete has) - I ordered it from the maker a good few years ago. I've been very happy with it www.fire-eye.com/red-eye-1However I don't bother with it if I'm using my AER - I just plug my guitar in and use the "colour" button. It sounds very natural to my ears.
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Post by lavaman on Aug 22, 2023 21:43:42 GMT
I get a decent sound using an Orchid preamp with my K&K pickup guitars into whatever PA is at the venue. Friends use a LR Baggs Para DI.
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Post by forestdweller on Aug 23, 2023 7:56:56 GMT
Keith and Ian, you have both mentioned the Orchid. I have played through one of these before and it produced a very nice sound. However, on the Orchid website it doesn't appear as if they make them anymore. Maybe I'll drop them an email. I have an orchid DI box, and on occasions I have run my guitar through that and then into a mic channel of the amp. Maybe I should try that again.
Robbie
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Post by forestdweller on Aug 23, 2023 15:38:04 GMT
Well I've just had a reply back from Orchid and its not good: "I am very sorry - but after almost 30 years of production - no stock of the Orchid Acoustic pre-amp remains - and there are no plans to build another batch. Demand had dropped off for this product - and some of the components required were getting hard to obtain. Apologies for this - but do consider the Orchid Muting DI Box, which enables instrument changing and tuning up whilst muted? orchid-electronics.co.uk/Muting_DI_Box.htmKind regards from Exeter - in the SW of the UK." So those that have one, you are very lucky! If anyone wants to sell me one let me know Robbie
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Post by ocarolan on Aug 23, 2023 21:42:59 GMT
forestdweller - that's dreadful news re the Orchid acoustic preamp, Robbie. I'm shocked; but if no-one is buying them there's no point in making them I suppose. I suspect that the preamp looks just too simple in comparison to many other more recent/hyped products. It's simplicity is the best thing - treble/middle/bass and volume - quick and intuitive to get a good sound - the eq bands must be very well chosen as I've not felt the need for a swept mid. Perhaps the need for phantom power might put some folk off I suppose? Funnily enough I spent most of today "messing" with my Orchid preamp (into small mixer) and several K&K equipped instruments - two guitars, a mandolin and a bouzouki. To cut a long story short I wanted to see how our church hall PA, with 6 small speakers spread over two opposite walls might cope with acoustic duo gigs - mostly out of laziness to avoid setting up our own amplification. The sound is well distibuted by the speaker positioning with no dead spots and no big volume differences across the hall, which is what I'd hoped for, unlike my directional two speaker PA. Once I'd set the T/M/B on the Orchid for the largest guitar I was able to play any of the other instruments through the Orchid with only a volume tweak. Quick job - mute the Orchid, unplug one instrument, plug in the next, tweak the vol on the Orchid and unmute. I've made a careful note of what o'clock each instrument needs! The result being that I can use these four instruments and only take up one XLR channel on my mixer, plus one for vocals. This leaves enough for Glyn to have a vocal channel, a bass guitar channel and two for guitar each through an XLR channel. A couple of other jack only channels are still available. Glyn was supposed to be there as well, but he'd gone to the extreme length of getting Covid to avoid having to spend the day geeking out with me. Good luck obtaining one anyway, Robbie - they don't seem to come up for sale very often at all. Keith PS I also gave my old rediscovered Boss pedal tuner a go - hated it - that's going spare if anyone wants to make an offer. As is the stomp-on-it-to-make-a-drum -sound thingy. Sounds great but I either get ankle ache trying to use it with just my foot, or leg ache if I move more of my leg to stomp.
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Post by juliant on Aug 23, 2023 22:40:32 GMT
I've got a K&K dual channel pre-amp that came with my Trinity system. It works well enough with the K&K (as I suppose it should) but it is a bit limited because there's only volume controls for the two channels. There's no direct out, and the treble, mid and bass are adjusted by trim pots inside the case - not very useful when performing if you have to take the thing apart and fiddle with a screwdriver. So I think I'll put that one on Reverb and look to getting a Red-eye Twin or Headway.
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Wild Violet
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Post by Wild Violet on Aug 24, 2023 6:59:05 GMT
Glyn was supposed to be there as well, but he'd gone to the extreme length of getting Covid to avoid having to spend the day geeking out with me. Please send him my best wishes for a speedy recovery!
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Post by forestdweller on Aug 28, 2023 9:56:25 GMT
I was going to pull the trigger on the Orchid Muting DI yesterday. £64 (including vat and shipping as on the Orchid website)seemed very reasonable for a pedal with such a high quality sound. Also the outputs mean that I could in theory run the 1/4" jack out to a reverb pedal and then plug this into a seperate channel on my amp.
But.....I got to the checkout using the website they said I had to use to order (showbitz) and blow me down if they charged £12.15 shipping plus VAT on top of all that, so it nearly came out at £83. I thought that was a bit hard to stomach, so still considering my options, including just using the Orchid DI box I already have (which is just a simple 1/4" in and XLR out).
BTW, I have been trawling my way through youtube videos of various pickups as options for the Brook, and to be honest they all sound awful, apart from the Fishman Rare Earth Blend- anyone use this one? I could in theory use this in any guitar then.
Robbie
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Post by lavaman on Aug 29, 2023 9:33:21 GMT
Hi Robbie, Before I bought the Orchid pre-amp I bought the Orchid Muting DI box. Both are quality products. The muting facility is so useful when changeing guitars or tunings.
Most of my guitars are fitted with K&K pickups, but I'm finding I now prefer the sound of the Fishman Rare Earth Humbucker and the Rare Earth Blend. The humbucker version sounds great on my Eastman and is a fair bit cheaper that the blend. Hope that helps iain
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Post by forestdweller on Aug 29, 2023 15:02:34 GMT
Hi Robbie, Before I bought the Orchid pre-amp I bought the Orchid Muting DI box. Both are quality products. The muting facility is so useful when changeing guitars or tunings. Most of my guitars are fitted with K&K pickups, but I'm finding I now prefer the sound of the Fishman Rare Earth Humbucker and the Rare Earth Blend. The humbucker version sounds great on my Eastman and is a fair bit cheaper that the blend. Hope that helps iain Thank you Iain, that's really helpful Robbie
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