minorkey
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Post by minorkey on Sept 23, 2014 8:36:13 GMT
I always thought that Cedar was the choice of tonewood for classical guitar, but I see a lot that are made of Spruce, including high end models like Takamine. Of course there are many cheaper models using basswood and such, but I'm wondering which is the preferred wood for serious classical players. And why dont Martin have classical guitars in their range, apart from the (spruce) backpacker?
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Post by scorpiodog on Sept 23, 2014 10:50:19 GMT
Martin do produce nylon strung guitars. Whether experts would term them "Classical" guitars, I'm not qualified to say. They're often referred to as "hybrids". An article about them is HereCan't help you with your other queries, I'm afraid.
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Sept 23, 2014 10:55:58 GMT
I think it's the same sort of idea for classical as it is for steel strung acoustics - the different soundboards will give you different characteristics to your sound, cedar being a bit warmer and sounding 'played in', with spruce being a bit 'tighter', but with the potential for better projection/attack. davewhite, colins or jonnymosco would probably give you better info though...
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Post by vikingblues on Sept 23, 2014 10:57:11 GMT
Good question indeed!
Depends on the type of spruce too. The Sitka Spruce tonewood is of course very plentiful with wide availability and and high yield from large diameter logs which is an advantage to major factory based operations. Ships masts can be made out of Sitka Spruce which shows how much tensile strength it has. But I have the impression that other less plentiful, but probably more expensive, spruces would have tonal qualities better suited to classical.
Cedar is also more delicate and fragile and needs more careful handling - not an ideal sort of wood for production line techniques where specifications are standardised and there is little room for skilled individuals making judgement calls.
The factory way to eliminate error is to limit as much as possible the influence of variability in the skills of people. The handmade builder seeks to eliminate error by harnessing and using the skills of people. It would be interesting to see if the preferences of types of tonewood for classical guitars were different for factory made and hand made operations.
I'm not a serious classical player (or at least haven't been for a long time) so I really don;t know what current thought on this is. Be interesting to know.
Mark
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Post by dawkins on Sept 23, 2014 12:19:09 GMT
I think the opinions are divided even amongst world class players.
I went with the school of thought that says Spruce is better because its tone gets better as it ages/played. I'm fortunate enough to own a handbuilt Alistair McNeill (UK luthier) and I do believe it is getting better but it could be all in the mind.
I also have a much cheaper K Yairi classical which is cedar. This is an electro classical and is a gem of a guitar for the money (assuming you want to play plugged in).
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Sept 23, 2014 13:48:44 GMT
Twelve months ago I'd have gone along with the view that cedar is best for a rounded tone on classical, but now I'm not so sure. I'd be much more inclined to be open minded about woods, and just try the guitar for yourself.
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colins
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Post by colins on Sept 23, 2014 15:10:04 GMT
The traditional classical guitar is a development of the European, mainly Spanish instrument of the mid 19th century, as made by the great Fernando de Torres among others, of course at that time they were just simply guitars as the 'classical' guitar didn't exist as a separate entity (the same is true for the 'Flamenco' guitar). All of the guitars of the period had Spruce tops, specifically European Spruce, Picea abies, or Caucasian Spruce, Picea orientalis. None whatsoever had cedar tops, this is still the European tradition, the very best European classical guitars have spruce tops. Cedar tops are a relatively modern invention (I nearly said abomination!) Some new world and antipodean builders do make high end priced classical guitars with cedar, but I have recently been making quite a few more traditional spruce topped guitar for players to replace their well know Australian built guitars. In fact at the RCM when new students arrive and their instruments are blind tested to see if they are suitable we rejected a number of these newer cedar topped guitars as being unsuitable. Sitka needs driving too much for a classical guitar, so the only cheap readily available alternative for volume manufacturers is cedar, which as has been said, opens much faster, but unfortunately does not improve much with age. So for the serious handbuilder, European Spruce (or Caucasian Spruce) is the first choice. There is one American spruce that makes good classicals that the White spruce/sitka hybrid Lutz, and I believe White Spruce may also be reasonable. So for me and the serious players I build for, the tonewood of choice is and always will be the two European spruce species. Colin PS. As you can tell I'm not opinionated at all!
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Post by creamburmese on Sept 23, 2014 15:18:58 GMT
I can only speak from an n of 5..... my classical teacher has a very high end cedar guitar that has an extremely warm resonant, round and LOUD sound... but his guitar probably cost many thousands and I imagine any guitar of that quality will exhibit fantastic tone that only varies in character. I previously owned a Kenny Hill Player (made in China) classical with a cedar top that was similarly warm, though not such a round sound (I don't know how best to describe it but that "roundness" is what attracts me in both classical and steel string guitars). I tried out a Kenny Hill spruce top when I was shopping for my current guitar and it had a more clear and penetrating sound that to my ears lacked both mellowness and roundness... I currently own a Douglass Scott classical with a Sitka (I'm pretty sure he said it's Sitka) spruce top that is incredibly warm and round -sounding - so much so that my teacher looked at it and couldn't believe it was not cedar, which of course again points up the fact that you have to play the individual guitar. As an aside It also has a very strong rosewood smell (to me it smells like clan tobacco!) despite being over 5 years old...my brand new Taylor has a rosewood back and doesn't smell like that at all. Finally I also own an ancient Japanese Dauphin classical with a cedar top and laminate back - it too has mellow (but not "round") sound... So I guess my take on this is that cedar usually sounds pretty mellow, while spruce can vary with the individual guitar (and its age...,)
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Post by ianlp59 on Sept 23, 2014 15:33:01 GMT
I have a Ramirez 1a, built in 1982. Its soundboard is Western Red Cedar...
Cheers,
Ian
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Post by earwighoney on Sept 23, 2014 16:20:09 GMT
I have a Ramirez 1a, built in 1982. Its soundboard is Western Red Cedar... Cheers, Ian Ian would it be possible to ask who's initials are inside your Ramirez? I've heard some of the old Ramirez guitars are incredible.
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Post by dawkins on Sept 24, 2014 6:30:34 GMT
I have a Ramirez 1a, built in 1982. Its soundboard is Western Red Cedar... Cheers, Ian Ian would it be possible to ask who's initials are inside your Ramirez? I've heard some of the old Ramirez guitars are incredible. They are incredible. My guitar teacher has three of them and they are all very very nice.
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Post by jonnymosco on Sept 24, 2014 7:14:33 GMT
Have a read of this thread on Delcamp: www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89547&hilit=cedar+or+sprucePersonally I prefer spruce (German), but do have a Terz classical in cedar... boosts the warmth/lower frequencies. Cedar is also more forgiving tone-wise. Fleta was keen on cedar when most makers believed it was limited for a concert instrument - nowadays it is commonplace with top builders. Takamine was started by a classical guitar maker, Mas Hirade, which may explain why they continue to build decent classicals. Hope that's helpful. Jonny
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Post by ianlp59 on Sept 24, 2014 8:30:06 GMT
I have a Ramirez 1a, built in 1982. Its soundboard is Western Red Cedar... Cheers, Ian Ian would it be possible to ask who's initials are inside your Ramirez? I've heard some of the old Ramirez guitars are incredible. Mine is serial no 16355. Amalia Ramirez told me that it was built by Fernando Morcuende de cruz, a disciple of Jose Ramirez III... It's a very nice guitar...
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Post by jwills57 on Sept 26, 2014 19:30:36 GMT
Hello, One and All--I'm past my classical days, but I do remember my search/searches for the "right" guitar. I learned a great deal about classical guitar construction and the finer points of various woods used in guitar construction. My thoughts on the cedar vs. spruce predicament can be summed up as follows. If my budget were, say, around $3,500 U.S., I would opt for a cedar-topped guitar from one of the various production houses in Spain. You can usually get a very fine instrument that will suit you well for a long time. If I were buying a luthier-built guitar, I would opt for a spruce-topped guitar, but not Sitka spruce, probably some type of Euro spruce, but I have heard some amazing classical guitars made with Engelmann spruce. I say this because you have to know what you are doing, really know, to be able to get the most out of spruce on a classical. This takes a great deal of skill and experience on the part of the luthier, but in the end I think spruce makes for a more penetrating and more nuanced sound. Cedar is fairly easy to work into a nice, full, warm, round sound, which is why so many production guitars are made with cedar tops, nothing wrong with that. Just my two cents' worth. Best, Jack
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minorkey
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Post by minorkey on Oct 1, 2014 17:23:41 GMT
Takamine was started by a classical guitar maker, Mas Hirade, which may explain why they continue to build decent classicals. Hope that's helpful. Jonny My irish friend, and recording artist Pat Coldrick, plays a Takamine.
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