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Post by marcus on Oct 20, 2014 0:22:14 GMT
I am fortunate to have two guitars in the house at the moment. A Brook Torridge and an Australian made guitar. I have found it a bit tricky going between the two guitars as they feel quite different in the separation of the strings.
I got out my trusty ruler the other day and measured them up. The Torridge has a 44mm nut and the outside of the low E to the high string is 37mm. The Australian guitar is 44.5/38. There is such a small difference but they do feel very different to me. Unfortunately I'm beginning to like the slightly wider spacing and find I fumble a bit going back to the Brook.
In any event I think I've found another good reason to simply own one guitar.
Do other players here notice this kind of difference when switching between guitars? Am I being hypersensitive and should I be making an appointment to see some kind of specialist? For what it's worth, I also don't like the feeling of sand under my feet when walking on our wooden floorboards. There may be a correlation.
Cheers, marcus
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 20, 2014 7:20:27 GMT
marcus, it might be that there is only a small difference in the string spacing, but if that is matched by a difference in the neck radius then the difference might be exacerbated... (I don't really know what I'm talking about!)
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Post by vikingblues on Oct 20, 2014 7:28:35 GMT
Hey Marcus - Sorry to hear that you have this issue. I'm hoping for a bunch of players coming onto the thread here and saying it's something that's easy to get used to! Not currently a problem but in ... 66 days (and counting) ... I'll be switching between guitars with a 43mm and 45mm on a fairly regular basis. Not a problem when I was trying the Lowden S32 in the shop and I don't recall it being a major problem when I got the loan of Keiths Lowden S10 either - which was giving me that 43 mm and 45mm switch. I think I've found more trouble with a different and off-putting feel to playing with the fretting hand due to the different neck profile of a guitar rather than the different neck width. EDIT - Ah I see Leo has just mentioned this - I feel more confident about thinking this now. I do find the 51mm nut (42mm string width at nut) of my recently unearthed classical guitar v the 43mm nut width (37mm string width) of my TW73 to be one huge bloody step for this member of mankinds fingers. Too frequently a rather a painful step too - think I've shot my bolt with playing classical - my mind is willing but my finger joints are less keen on the journey! But from a basic playing point of view I do find that this larger difference does cause strings to be missed by the fretting fingers with less than musical results! Mark
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David Hutton
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Post by David Hutton on Oct 20, 2014 7:35:23 GMT
I definitely do ,but my difference is a little more. My Taylor 314 is 44.5mm and my Yamaha slg110n is 50mm. For anything slightly complicated, I effectively have to relearn when swapping between the two. The 50mm is nylon, so that may also make a difference. Also I often use my thumb on the taylor, but cannot do this on the wider neck.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 20, 2014 8:15:50 GMT
I find myself picky over string spacing at the nut/fingerboard width at the nut.
I know for certain that I will struggle on any guitar with a nut width of less than 44mm as there is no chance that the string spacing can be great enough for me to play cleanly. I get rattles of strings against fingers/nails playing adjacent strings.
I can just about get on with 44mm nut width provided that the strings are spaced to make maximum use of the available width - though often they aren't, and there can be scope on some guitars for making a new nut with slightly wider spaced strings - can be enough to make all the difference provided this doesn't increase the likelihood of accidentally pushing strings off the edge of the fret.
My guitars are either 45mm or 46mm nut width, which allows me the kind of string spacing I can get along with. I have no trouble changing between 45mm and 46mm.
The maximum string spacing possible with any width nut is going to be limited by the contour of the finished fret ends - some are filed steeply at the ends which gives the maximum possible length of "frettable" crown to the fret whereas others slope more gently down, reducing the length of fret, and hence reducing possible max string spacing available.
It is certainly true that there are other factors indirectly involved in this - neck profile has already been mentioned, (and I would add, especially the shaping where the fingerboard edge meets the neck) but fingerboard radius is another.
Strings can also be spaced in different ways - either equal spacing of the mid lines of the strings (which results in the thicker wound strings having less space between them than the thinner wound and unwound strings), or equal spacings between the outside edges of the strings.
Possibly strangely, I am much less sensitive to differences in string spacing at the bridge, though would always chose around 57mm for preference.
Keith
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alig
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Post by alig on Oct 20, 2014 8:57:54 GMT
Hey Marcus!
This was one of the things Rory (Taran) discussed with me at length...
I tried a 46/60 of his and was swayed as that spacing suited me - I suspect because the Fylde I played for so long was, perhaps, 45 (?) and I was used to it. I had a few Taylors which were a little narrower and I got used to that but was very aware of the difference when I went back to the Fylde. I can recall digging out the 335 and it feeling very strange under my hands after the Tarans!
It also occurs to me that, although the Goodall I have is probably 44/45, it's always in a C tuning and I play it capo'd - maybe it's 46-odds at the second fret... (I'd check but guitars aren't to hand now. However, it makes sense...)
For me, 45/46 is ideal for finger-style and strumming. However, It's a horses for course thing.
To paraphrase an old adage (and I love a good adage, me) maybe, having tried wide, one can't ever go back to narrow...
Alasdair.
PS So sorry to hear of your sand/floorboards phobia. I have the same thing only it's mud and grass/floorboards...
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Post by mandovark on Oct 20, 2014 9:35:43 GMT
In any event I think I've found another good reason to simply own one guitar. We'll have none of this heretical talk on here, thank you very much. There is NO good reason to only own one guitar! Seriously, I tend to find that it's the whole package of nut width, scale length, string spacing and neck profile that determines whether I find a guitar comfortable or not. I used to think that I preferred a 45mm nut, but I find my Brook (44mm) every bit as comfortable. I've also played a couple of Moons (standard nut width is 43mm, I think) which I found very playable even though the fingerboard is narrower than I usually like. On the point about switching between different nut widths, my experience is that it becomes less of a problem over time. When I first started playing mandolin, I found that it made my guitar neck feel like a cricket bat. Having done it for a while, I find I can switch between guitar, mandolin, and even 5-string bass without any problem.
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Post by stringdriventhing on Oct 20, 2014 10:59:35 GMT
For fingerstyle I prefer a wider nut width/string spacing and both me acoustics have this - I think they are both 45mm. I also prefer a chunkier neck. For strumming I can cope with narrower string spacing. I must admit I have got a lot less fussy bout necks since I started playing Tenor Guitar, Mando and Banjo, but if you are playing guitar all the time you do get used to your preferred nut width.
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Post by earwighoney on Oct 20, 2014 11:22:12 GMT
Hey Marcus! This was one of the things Rory (Taran) discussed with me at length... I tried a 46/60 of his and was swayed as that spacing suited me - I suspect because the Fylde I played for so long was, perhaps, 45 (?) and I was used to it. Alasdair, What is the string spacing on your Tarans? *** Marcus, You're right, there's a difference in feel between a 44mm and a 44.45mm nut, not sure why it should feel so much. I love Brook guitars but I find their standard 44mm nut width and their standard thin neck profile to be quite difficult to play. In addition to fretboard radius, I believe neck profile is an important issue often overlooked when it comes to comfort of playing. When it comes to fretboard radius, I've found the more radius/circular the fretboard is (ie the lower the radius eg 7.25 against 16) it can feel like there is more space on the fretboard. I'm not sure to the exact possibility of doing so, but there could be a chance a luthier could widen the string spacing at the nut over 37mm, even if it's just by 0.5mm it could have a slight improvement. I have a nylon string guitar with a 53mm wide nut, 59mm string spacing at the saddle and it has a huge neck profile. It's a struggle to play.
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alig
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Post by alig on Oct 20, 2014 14:21:58 GMT
Hi EWH,
Sorry, I wasn't clear in my last note...
It should have read 46/60 - nut and bridge widths. The necks are pretty slim - I asked that they resemble Taylor necks as I've always found those to be a joy.
it's odd but those few odd mm make a huge difference under the fingers.
All the best,
Alasdair.
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 20, 2014 18:54:38 GMT
I find neck shape generally affects what I think of as width - measurements often give me a different view of width. My 'widest' guitar is my narrowest!
The width of the fingerboard is important for fingerstyle in that you want enough clearance from the top and bottom strings so that you don't slip off the end and foul the note!
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Post by earwighoney on Oct 20, 2014 19:51:45 GMT
Hi EWH, Sorry, I wasn't clear in my last note... It should have read 46/60 - nut and bridge widths. The necks are pretty slim - I asked that they resemble Taylor necks as I've always found those to be a joy. it's odd but those few odd mm make a huge difference under the fingers. All the best, Alasdair. Alasdair, it was me who was unclear! My initial post didn't make much sense. I meant to write at the 46mm wide nut, what is the E to E string spacing? Also how do you find the 60mm spacing at the saddle? Also, the 335's is the standard Gibson 43mm/50mm. I love the Gibson hollow/semi hollow sound in particular 335's are amazing guitars, I wish Gibson's would have more generous spacing at the other bridge/saddle. I recently acquired a Tele with 43/56.5mm spacing which makes a huge difference! With those specs I'm enjoying playing electric more than ever before.
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Post by marcus on Oct 21, 2014 2:13:02 GMT
Well thank you all for your informative and thought-provoking replies. It is interesting to hear all the different experiences and preferences. I hadn't really thought about the neck profile and fretboard radius in terms of how it affects the feeling of string spacing... I had always simply thought of neck profile as either too full or just right for my hands. V necks give me the willies although I find the very slight V near the nut end of the Brook very comfortable. I also had never thought about the spacing between each string as Keith mentioned.
It's funny how I always found the Brook so easy to play until I started playing the slightly wider neck. But I do agree with stringdrivething that the slightly narrower nut on the Brook feels good for strumming but now not so good for fingerstyle. Argggghhh, I should never have picked up "the other" guitar.
I still find it fascinating that mere difference of a mm (give or take) can feel so different. If it still bothers me in a few months and may indeed look at having another nut cut.
Thanks again all for sharing your thoughts.
Cheers, marcus
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 21, 2014 9:33:52 GMT
Well thank you all for your informative and thought-provoking replies. It is interesting to hear all the different experiences and preferences. I hadn't really thought about the neck profile and fretboard radius in terms of how it affects the feeling of string spacing... I had always simply thought of neck profile as either too full or just right for my hands. V necks give me the willies although I find the very slight V near the nut end of the Brook very comfortable. I also had never thought about the spacing between each string as Keith mentioned. It's funny how I always found the Brook so easy to play until I started playing the slightly wider neck. But I do agree with stringdrivething that the slightly narrower nut on the Brook feels good for strumming but now not so good for fingerstyle. Argggghhh, I should never have picked up "the other" guitar. I still find it fascinating that mere difference of a mm (give or take) can feel so different. If it still bothers me in a few months and may indeed look at having another nut cut. Thanks again all for sharing your thoughts. Cheers, marcus I think I feel that same way about Brook. I think it might be because their necks are so fast and thin. After talking to Adrian Lucas about my guitar commission I went home and at his suggestion measured the next width of both guitars at the saddle and at the nut. I was very surprised to find that my Martin was slightly narrower than my Santa Cruz for it feels the other way around. I would swear that my Martin's next was far wider. Adrian told me that this was quite common to find, neck profile and style make a big difference on how your fingers feel on the fretboard!
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alig
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Post by alig on Oct 21, 2014 10:17:07 GMT
Hi EWH, Sorry, I wasn't clear in my last note... It should have read 46/60 - nut and bridge widths. The necks are pretty slim - I asked that they resemble Taylor necks as I've always found those to be a joy. it's odd but those few odd mm make a huge difference under the fingers. All the best, Alasdair. Alasdair, it was me who was unclear! My initial post didn't make much sense. I meant to write at the 46mm wide nut, what is the E to E string spacing? Also how do you find the 60mm spacing at the saddle? Also, the 335's is the standard Gibson 43mm/50mm. I love the Gibson hollow/semi hollow sound in particular 335's are amazing guitars, I wish Gibson's would have more generous spacing at the other bridge/saddle. I recently acquired a Tele with 43/56.5mm spacing which makes a huge difference! With those specs I'm enjoying playing electric more than ever before. Ah. Okay, apologies. The Taran spacing is 39 mm E - E. Quite a bit of wiggle room either side of fingerboard. I've found the spacing at the bridge end to be less noticeable in playing terms than the other end. They're just very comfortable guitars to play under my hands. I agree about the 335. I got it because I felt it was the most versatile of the Gibsons. I've been planning to sell mine for years now but something keeps stopping me... I really don't play it anymore and I've always felt that having an instrument and not playing it was like having a painting and keeping it facing the wall. But... Alasdair.
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