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Post by surfguy13 on Jan 25, 2015 11:38:34 GMT
I use an 8-track deck a great deal and yet have always struggled recording acoustics. I don't think this is uncommon! Historically I have used a SE 2200A condenser mike (large diaphram) which I have found is superb for miking up cabinets but I struggle getting enough gain and a decent consistent sound with an acoustic.
I have also used various soundhole pickups over the years, the last one being the LR Baggs M1. The Baggs was great but as I don't want to install a jack socket in my 'go to' guitar I found that having the lead hanging down from the soundhole was far from ideal. Also, the socket for the lead on the M1s is almost impossible to detach without removing the pickup; if it was then I'd have been happy to leave it in situ but it's really fiddly. Also, and more importantly, the soundhole on this guitar is small'ish and that vetoes 90% of soundhole pickups.
I have chatted with a couple of 'experts' in music shops and although very helpful, at the end of the day they are trying to sell you something and that means you don't always get the best advice. However, what did come up was that the lack of gain when using the SE 2200A was maybe down to the phantom power preamps on the deck and the 3 guys I spoke to all suggested using a preamp.
So, in an ideal world I would like to continue to use a mike and if anyone has any suggestions re models/type I would be really interested. Particularly pencil mikes versus large diaphram mikes. The same applies to external stand-alone preamps; I've never used one and would be very interested to have any views on how important they are in terms of generating enough gain and what models are worth looking at.
In relation to gain I was told that getting a mixer would help as this will have much better quality preamps and offer a great deal of control over EQ.
Not sure if anyone has any of the above for sale?
Many thanks
Guy
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Post by andyhowell on Jan 25, 2015 12:54:48 GMT
Guy,
Can of worms :-)
I always prefer a stereo recording set up for acoustic guitar, certainly for fingerstyle or picking. And I prefer small condensers reasonably closely miced. These days most people are recording into a DAW on a computer and I find a humble interface with reasonable preamps gives me enough volume. You don't have to pay a fortune here. A Steinberg or Focusrite interface will give you enough volume in. I think Steinberg have the edge - they use very good Yamaha preamps. £200 would give you 4 XLR inputs but there are cheaper versions with 2 or 1 preamp/s.
Sticking with a single mic you can get great sound from a large condensor but you pay for what you get. I have two large mics, a Rode NTL 2 (affordable) and. Mojave M 301. The 301 is a definite step up in price but also in quality, being very natural and neutral.
You will probably need stand alone preamp for going Into your 8 track. You should have no worries with volume or gain, I have a Headway preamp for playing live but this delivers a massive, clean, signal into any component it is connected to.
For recording you want not only gain but clear, colourless sound ( a subjective judgment in itself). Some people speak highly of the ART range which are affordable-ish and had a tube sound. There are versions for 2 or single inputs. The Focusrite ISA is a single channel and costs about £100 - there is a dual channel version available. But Ali would check out another option.
If we are sticking with a single mic have a look at the Golden Age preamps which have had great reviews.
The Golden Age 73 Mk will cost £200 and will give great sound and more than enough gain. There is a deluxe version at £300 but the basic model has great user and professional reviews. I have a deluxe versioN on order and will report back/review here. At £400 a pair of these would work very well for stereo recording at home. A similar model to the deluxe is the Warm Audio preamp at around the same price but they don't have the basic model equivalent. Golden Age are a Swedish company.
So, £200-300 for a good single channel preamp.
For reviews take Sound on Sound seriously and get to know Gearslutz website.
Personally, I have always found cheaper mics are problematic. I had reasonable results with a pair of AKG C1000 mics but am not sure they gave me much more than say a Zoom H4 or H6 mini recorder. These days I use a pair of Beyerdynamic M930 small condensers that are a million times better. The M930s cost £600 which is hefty, but they are a life purchase. Some people like the Rode NT 55 s which are in the same price range although I don't really go for that sound - others love it though.
I built my stuff up over years so resist the temptation to go mad (if temptation is a possibility)
Check out the Golden Age 73 Mk II as a starting point.
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Post by surfguy13 on Jan 25, 2015 13:27:45 GMT
Guy, Can of worms :-) I always prefer a stereo recording set up for acoustic guitar, certainly for fingerstyle or picking. And I prefer small condensers reasonably closely miced. These days most people are recording into a DAW on a computer and I find a humble interface with reasonable preamps gives me enough volume. You don't have to pay a fortune here. A Steinberg or Focusrite interface will give you enough volume in. I think Steinberg have the edge - they use very good Yamaha preamps. £200 would give you 4 XLR inputs but there are cheaper versions with 2 or 1 preamp/s. Sticking with a single mic you can get great sound from a large condensor but you pay for what you get. I have two large mics, a Rode NTL 2 (affordable) and. Mojave M 301. The 301 is a definite step up in price but also in quality, being very natural and neutral. You will probably need stand alone preamp for going Into your 8 track. You should have no worries with volume or gain, I have a Headway preamp for playing live but this delivers a massive, clean, signal into any component it is connected to. For recording you want not only gain but clear, colourless sound ( a subjective judgment in itself). Some people speak highly of the ART range which are affordable-ish and had a tube sound. Their are versions for 2 or single inputs. The Focusrite ISA is a single channel and costs about £100 - there is a dual channel version available. But Ali would check out another option. If we are sticking with a single mic have a look at the Golden Age preamps which have had great reviews. The Golden Age 73 Mk will cost £200 and will give great sound and more than enough gain. There is a deluxe version at £300 but the basic model has great user and professional reviews. I have a deluxe versioN on order and will report back/review here. At £400 a pair of these would work very well for stereo recording at home. A similar model to the deluxe is the Warm Audio preamp at around the same price but they don't have the basic model equivalent. Golden Age are a Swedish company. So, £200-300 for a good single channel preamp. For reviews take Sound on Sound seriously and get to know Gearslutz website. Personally, I have always found cheaper mics are problematic. I had reasonable results with a pair of AKG C1000 mics but am not sure they gave me much more than say a Zoom H4 or H6 mini recorder. These days I use a pair of Beyerdynamic M930 small condensers that are a million times better. The M930s cost £600 which is hefty, but they are a life purchase. Some people like the Rode NT 55 s which are in the same price range although I don't really go for that sound - others love it though. I built my stuff up over years so resist the temptation to go mad (if temptation is a possibility) Check out the Golden Age 73 Mk II as a starting point. Wow, fantastic overview, thank you SO much for taking the time and the trouble to reply in such detail. And of course you're dead right, it is the ultimate can of worms, and no matter how much information you manage to get on individual products at the end of the day what it is down to is pulling it all together. Also having a reasonable understanding of what each piece of gear actually does and being able to wade through manufacturer's specs and claims without being overly influenced. Yes, I use Sound on Sound a great deal and it is a wonderful source but again, it is pulling it altogether to provide a solution rather than looking at individual products. They do a great many in-depth articles such as putting together a home studio and that sort of thing which I have found incredibly useful but I haven't found anything yet that gives me the sort of overview I need. I have always tried to avoid PCs for recording.....don't know why, I guess I just felt that it was more complex than using a deck and the more time spent messing around with outboard the less time spent playing! I use a basic Tascam deck which I find suits my needs perfectly....the top end decks offer masses more in the way of facilities but seem not to offer huge leaps in sound quality. I agree totally about not going mad but at the same time avoiding cheap mikes. I have been doing this for sooooo long now and seem to have made all the classic mistakes including cheap mikes!! It's brilliant have is many suggestions for both preamps and mikes and I will look into these with interest. The Golden Age 73 MK11 seems like a very good starting point. It is the preamps where I need the help as it's a concept I have to say I don't really understand and so having some models to check out will definitely help hugely. I can only repeat that it's almost essential to have advice from someone who not only has a lot of experience and has 'been there, done it' but also has no commercial bias one way or another. Thanks again for the advice and I will get stuck in and see where I end up.
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Post by andyhowell on Jan 25, 2015 13:42:47 GMT
Your Tasam unit should be fine for recording with a bit more gain.
Your SE mic already has a -15db Pad and a hi pass filter. The DKX Golden Age duplicates these and you probably don't need this - the basic 73 II should give you all the basics.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 14:21:17 GMT
Just one thing with regard to you being told that mixers have better preamps- this is not always true. Do you really want all the other circuitry with a mixer, such as EQ, as this adds to the cost, and if it is something you aren't going to use, then consider spending the same amount of money on a 4 channel preamp.
Nothing wrong with your mic- an excellent choice. Maybe consider getting a good acoustic guitar preamp for use with the pickup.
Like Andy, I always record with a stereo pair as my basic sound. That was how my album was recorded. However, I have got excellent results recently by adding to this the k&k pickup sound, and a clip on dpa4099g mic.
Good luck with your search,
Robbie
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Post by andyhowell on Jan 25, 2015 14:43:06 GMT
I agree with Robbie. I think your advice about mixers is a bit dodgy. A good preamp is what you need.
I'd also like 4 XLR inputs - a large condenser for the room and guitar pickup to extend the top and bottom registers ...
... But I must stop otherwise the credit card will find itself stretched!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 14:53:04 GMT
Something like this would do the job very well, and it doesn't cost the earth. In fact you could easily buy 2 if you every get another mic to add to the arsenal: www.gak.co.uk/en/presonus-tubepre-v2/5413Robbie
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Post by ocarolan on Jan 25, 2015 15:07:57 GMT
Some good responses so far, but before getting bogged down in gear I'd like to backtrack a little and ask what is your aim in making recordings and how do you want to use them once captured?
Keith
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Post by earwighoney on Jan 25, 2015 15:09:19 GMT
I have a cheap Behringer Valve Preamp that cost about £30, which I've used for over 10 years and it's been great. When it comes to getting preamps, I myself would look at upgrading to an interface (USB/Firewire/etc) that would have several preamps if you are looking to record in the digital means. If you are getting an interface make sure it's compatible/stable with your OS. When it comes to recording acoustic guitars, there is a multitude of recording them. Some people swear by one configuration and others by another. If I was you, in addition to the SE LDC you already have, I'd look to adding a pair of SDC's; Rode Nt5's and Oktava MK 012's are popular choices.
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Post by surfguy13 on Jan 25, 2015 16:38:58 GMT
Thank you gentlemen, excellent advice! OK....what I should say is that I no longer have the SE2200 hence my enquiry about mikes as well as preamps. I should never have sold it but I did and so I have a mike as well as a preamp on the shopping list! Keith made a very good point and I should have explained why I record at home and what I'm trying to achieve. There is no real end game other than writing where the acoustic is concerned. I have been playing acoustic since 1965 but like so many people I got sidetracked down the electric route and have been playing mainly electric bass and guitar ever since. However, the discipline of playing acoustic encourages me to write and so my need for a mic/pickup is purely for that purpose. I sometimes take it further but not often. However, that doesn't mean to say that I'm happy to settle with poor quality, I really want to get the very best quality I can within a sensible budget. I'm pleased to hear that Andy and Robbie are agreed that going down the mixer route is a curved ball.....to be honest I was puzzled and it seemed to me that a preamp was the most important element. I certainly don't want to put anything in line that doesn't have to be there. I tend to steer well clear of unnecessary digital add ons as they have an inevitable, and normally negative, effect on sound. Great to have the suggestion of the Presonus preamp Robbie.....it looks incredibly simple to use and if I do decide to go for another mike I could always get a second. It's great to be able to look at this alongside the Golden Age 73 Mk11 as potential options. The reviews of the Golden Age are superb and it does seem like a pretty damn good bit of kit, and not only for recording acoustic guitar either. I did consider stereo or twin mikes but frankly I think I will stick to a single mike day one. My biggest problem in life is that I move when I play; once I've gone through the painful process of setting up mikes I realise that most of the hard work is out of the window because I've moved around too much. Ridiculous but true. I did consider SE GM10 as a result. The great thing is that there really is an awful lot of great gear out there and since I was last shopping for this sort of stuff if anything prices seem to have come down? That or you're just getting more built in for the same price. I will also look at the higher priced mikes too such as the Beyerdynamic M930 that Andy suggested....it is true that you get what you pay for and sometimes it really does make sense to bite the bullit and buy the very best you can afford. I don't compromise on guitars/guitar amps so I should really apply that to mikes/preamps etc. Thanks again guys!
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Post by ocarolan on Jan 25, 2015 17:50:07 GMT
.................. Keith made a very good point and I should have explained why I record at home and what I'm trying to achieve. There is no real end game other than writing where the acoustic is concerned. I have been playing acoustic since 1965 but like so many people I got sidetracked down the electric route and have been playing mainly electric bass and guitar ever since. However, the discipline of playing acoustic encourages me to write and so my need for a mic/pickup is purely for that purpose. I sometimes take it further but not often. However, that doesn't mean to say that I'm happy to settle with poor quality, I really want to get the very best quality I can within a sensible budget. ................... ... in which case you could save yourself a lot of cash, a lot of chuffing about, and a lot of clutter by simply using a small digital recorder - there's loads of them around - Zoom, Roland, Boss etc. You can record to the SD card in them, or, as I do, use the device as a USB mic into my PC. Hence multitracking is easy enough - there's free audio recording software around - Audacity, Reaper etc. The quality is good, and would only be bettered by spending a great deal more. Oh, and if you want reasonable true acoustic sound, forget trying to record via pickup - possibl;e, but usually needs a lot of tweaking to sound really good - can be useful if you record mic and p/u separately and mix them, but again the chuffing about factor sets in. My first experiments (once I'd got fed up with tape multitracking, then solo and multitrack with two mics/mixer etc several years ago) at getting decent acoustic guitar recordngs were with one of the first Zoom H2 recorders - just plonked it on my kitchen table and sat in fromt of it. Musta got lucky with distances, background noises etc because those first recordings turned out fine. I still use the same (also now ancient) Zoom as a USB mic straight into my ancient Cakewalk software. Simple, no fuss, no mess, and it can still be used a s a standalone recorder to capture ideas wherever you happen to be, by recording to the internal SD card and transferring them to PC if warranted. Just an alternative take which you may feel more appropriate to your needs. In fact these devices are so cheap, why not get one anyway - you may find it satisfies your needs for longer than you might have thought! All the best in your quest - let us know how you get on! Keith
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Post by andyhowell on Jan 25, 2015 18:38:49 GMT
So, we need another mic ;-)
Following on from Keith there are some things we don't know, like your style of playing or the kind of quality you are looking for. I mentioned the Zoom recorders earlier and for a lot of people these give you more than enough. However, assuming that you want to continue with your TASCAM 8 track here are a few more thoughts.
Playing style is important and will effect what you choose to use. For example, I play with a thumb pick which can get me into trouble. If I play soft celtic tunes as Robbie does I don't have any problems. But when I really hammer the thumb pick, frail and so on (I do like to beat the shit out of my instruments occasionally) I get into trouble with recording. When I play live I know the default settings for my preamp to deal with this stuff and can then let somebody else twiddle their knobs. However, when recording it always seems to take ages playing with EQ and so on to get this right.
This problem is solved for me by the Beyer Mics by simply tripping the -15db Pad. Your previous mic did have a pad but not all do. This is why some preamps have built in Pads. However, it is my experience that Pads in mics are easier to use than Pads in pre amps or in computer software. And not all Pads are equal. My large condenser mics simply cut -15db. My small condensers seem to be doing something else, dealing with the problem and leaving much of the rest of the sound alone. There is some magic going on here, probably because the small condensers are designed to work with instruments rather than voices. I think you would find much the same with decent small diaphragms from Rode or SE.
If you relied on string or assertive flat picking you might have a similar problem. For heavy strumming you can simply increase the distance between you and the mic but if your room's acoustics are not too clever then that won't help.
So, what style of guitar are you wanting to record?
Next think about your equipment 'chain'. I don't need additional preamps on my small condensers as they give me enough signal for Logic (in may case) to work with. I use a preamp for vocals and my large condensers seem to really open up with them. You will only need preamps because of the TASCAM. But if you are happy with the TASCAM fine. A simple Presonus or ART pre might be all you need. If you are singing or wanting to do other things you might want to double that budget to ensure you get the vocal quality.
For years I used a dedicated hard disc recorder. The pres on that left something to be desired as well. A modern interface really only has to connect the XLR inputs up to the USB or Firewire output. A dedicated recorder has to do much more for more or less the same price — I suspect costs were cut with pres,
So, some options and choices.
What style are you playing in? Does that require some versatility in the mic — Pads, hi pass filters and multi patterns for example. Or will a simple cardoid do? If so, you might want to consider the Zoom solution. You say you use 8 tracks — do you actually use them? I use computer DAWS because they are far more flexible than my old recorder. However, I use Apple computers that are generally simpler to use with audio. PCs can be a challenge.
Do you sing?
Is your style gentle or is there a lot of attack? Maybe you do both in which case you need to consider this a little.
Work out a budget — this is important. For example, if you are primarily recording guitar you might find that your price range can accommodate stereo condensers. If you need a very versatile mic go large, decide if you need pads and variable patterns. If these sounds gobbledygook then you probably don't need these features.
Assuming we are staying with the TASCAM and a simple pre then just work out your mic budget. SE have just introduced a new range of mics, including new replacements for your old version. There are not may reviews up yet but being as we are talking about SE you can be pretty confident they will sound good.
So, how simple do you want things or how much ambition and aspiration do you have? Remember. There is nothing wrong with simple !!!!
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Post by surfguy13 on Jan 25, 2015 19:26:27 GMT
.................. Keith made a very good point and I should have explained why I record at home and what I'm trying to achieve. There is no real end game other than writing where the acoustic is concerned. I have been playing acoustic since 1965 but like so many people I got sidetracked down the electric route and have been playing mainly electric bass and guitar ever since. However, the discipline of playing acoustic encourages me to write and so my need for a mic/pickup is purely for that purpose. I sometimes take it further but not often. However, that doesn't mean to say that I'm happy to settle with poor quality, I really want to get the very best quality I can within a sensible budget. ................... ... in which case you could save yourself a lot of cash, a lot of chuffing about, and a lot of clutter by simply using a small digital recorder - there's loads of them around - Zoom, Roland, Boss etc. You can record to the SD card in them, or, as I do, use the device as a USB mic into my PC. Hence multitracking is easy enough - there's free audio recording software around - Audacity, Reaper etc. The quality is good, and would only be bettered by spending a great deal more. Oh, and if you want reasonable true acoustic sound, forget trying to record via pickup - possibl;e, but usually needs a lot of tweaking to sound really good - can be useful if you record mic and p/u separately and mix them, but again the chuffing about factor sets in. My first experiments (once I'd got fed up with tape multitracking, then solo and multitrack with two mics/mixer etc several years ago) at getting decent acoustic guitar recordngs were with one of the first Zoom H2 recorders - just plonked it on my kitchen table and sat in fromt of it. Musta got lucky with distances, background noises etc because those first recordings turned out fine. I still use the same (also now ancient) Zoom as a USB mic straight into my ancient Cakewalk software. Simple, no fuss, no mess, and it can still be used a s a standalone recorder to capture ideas wherever you happen to be, by recording to the internal SD card and transferring them to PC if warranted. Just an alternative take which you may feel more appropriate to your needs. In fact these devices are so cheap, why not get one anyway - you may find it satisfies your needs for longer than you might have thought! All the best in your quest - let us know how you get on! Keith Thanks Keith and thanks also for an incredibly sensible option in the Zoom. Something I hadn't considered because I genuinely had no idea they existed! I guess my immediate reaction is to say that it seems to involve a PC? Although maybe not necessarily? I know that using PCs for recording is THE way to go but I find that multi-tracks are so very easy and straightforward to use and if at all possible I'd prefer to continue to use one if at all possible. I really don't enjoy messing about with outboard gear, often because I don't understand it (!!!), and a good basic 8 track is a doddle to use. However, having said that the new Zoom H2n is only about £100 and seems like a very usable bit of kit. My Tascam deck has a 8GB Flash card but won't take a SD card which is a pain. If I could record on the Zoom and dump on the Tascam it would be ideal and I'd definitely buy one and give it a whirl!
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Post by andyhowell on Jan 25, 2015 19:34:33 GMT
I take it your Tascam doesn't have a USB PORT?
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Post by surfguy13 on Jan 25, 2015 19:44:40 GMT
So, we need another mic ;-) Following on from Keith there are some things we don't know, like your style of playing or the kind of quality you are looking for. I mentioned the Zoom recorders earlier and for a lot of people these give you more than enough. However, assuming that you want to continue with your TASCAM 8 track here are a few more thoughts. Playing style is important and will effect what you choose to use. For example, I play with a thumb pick which can get me into trouble. If I play soft celtic tunes as Robbie does I don't have any problems. But when I really hammer the thumb pick, frail and so on (I do like to beat the shit out of my instruments occasionally) I get into trouble with recording. When I play live I know the default settings for my preamp to deal with this stuff and can then let somebody else twiddle their knobs. However, when recording it always seems to take ages playing with EQ and so on to get this right. This problem is solved for me by the Beyer Mics by simply tripping the -15db Pad. Your previous mic did have a pad but not all do. This is why some preamps have built in Pads. However, it is my experience that Pads in mics are easier to use than Pads in pre amps or in computer software. And not all Pads are equal. My large condenser mics simply cut -15db. My small condensers seem to be doing something else, dealing with the problem and leaving much of the rest of the sound alone. There is some magic going on here, probably because the small condensers are designed to work with instruments rather than voices. I think you would find much the same with decent small diaphragms from Rode or SE. If you relied on string or assertive flat picking you might have a similar problem. For heavy strumming you can simply increase the distance between you and the mic but if your room's acoustics are not too clever then that won't help. So, what style of guitar are you wanting to record? Next think about your equipment 'chain'. I don't need additional preamps on my small condensers as they give me enough signal for Logic (in may case) to work with. I use a preamp for vocals and my large condensers seem to really open up with them. You will only need preamps because of the TASCAM. But if you are happy with the TASCAM fine. A simple Presonus or ART pre might be all you need. If you are singing or wanting to do other things you might want to double that budget to ensure you get the vocal quality. For years I used a dedicated hard disc recorder. The pres on that left something to be desired as well. A modern interface really only has to connect the XLR inputs up to the USB or Firewire output. A dedicated recorder has to do much more for more or less the same price — I suspect costs were cut with pres, So, some options and choices. What style are you playing in? Does that require some versatility in the mic — Pads, hi pass filters and multi patterns for example. Or will a simple cardoid do? If so, you might want to consider the Zoom solution. You say you use 8 tracks — do you actually use them? I use computer DAWS because they are far more flexible than my old recorder. However, I use Apple computers that are generally simpler to use with audio. PCs can be a challenge. Do you sing? Is your style gentle or is there a lot of attack? Maybe you do both in which case you need to consider this a little. Work out a budget — this is important. For example, if you are primarily recording guitar you might find that your price range can accommodate stereo condensers. If you need a very versatile mic go large, decide if you need pads and variable patterns. If these sounds gobbledygook then you probably don't need these features. Assuming we are staying with the TASCAM and a simple pre then just work out your mic budget. SE have just introduced a new range of mics, including new replacements for your old version. There are not may reviews up yet but being as we are talking about SE you can be pretty confident they will sound good. So, how simple do you want things or how much ambition and aspiration do you have? Remember. There is nothing wrong with simple !!!! Very good point Andy. To answer your question very simply......mostly fingerpicking and occasionally flat picking. I don't use a thumb pick and if I use a flat pick for chords I don't dig in. Quite controlled mostly. This is possibly why I have had problems with gain now that I think of it. My two acoustics are 12-frets; an all mahogany collings and a Chris Perkins 0 in spruce/cherry. Both are more or less pure fingerpickers. Other than death metal ( ) I play a variety of music which I can't really classify, even loosely, but fair to say a bit of everything with the only limitation being.......12 frets!! As I say, I use the acoustics mainly for writing/recording and so high quality isn't essential but I must be honest and say that the better it sounds the more inspiring it is and inspiration is REALLY important. Does that make sense? I don't sing, well I do but don't record vocals, so that makes life a great deal easier. From what you have said, and if SD/Flash aren't compatible ruling the Zoom out, then it would seem that something like a Presonus would work well in conjunction with a decent mike and straight into the deck? This would be perfect from my point of view as it keeps PCs at arm's length and also means that I can continue to use a deck I know well and enjoy using. The Presonus will make up for the poor pres on the deck and I should be good to go. Yes, as you say, budget is critical in terms of a mike and looking at what's out there I can see that you can still get a pretty decent mike for under £200 which is a bargain. I guess I could chuck £300 at the preamp and have a straightforward mike/preamp/deck setup. I was VERY impressed with the SE 2200A and I think you are dead right that if it is made by SA it should be good value for money and work well.
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