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Post by colan on Feb 5, 2015 14:55:42 GMT
It's a fact- I'm told- that classical/Spanish/nylon string players like a high action on their guitars. Consequently, it seems that all nylon string guitars come with a high action which is difficult to reduce if, like me, you like a really low action on your guitar. You can shave the bottom off the saddle of a nylon stringer to lower the strings a tad but you quickly come to realise that you are also reducing the ' break angle ' when doing so, the angle that is formed by the string passing over the saddle and meeting the bridge to which it is tied. Reduce it too much and the saddle fails in its purpose of transmitting the character of the struck string to the soundboard via the bridge.
Now, my new Gitane nylon stringer needs a drastic reduction in its saddle height in order for me to be comfortable playing it so I'm forced to engage with this problem. It seems to me that the accepted method of tying the strings ,i.e passing them through the bridge hole and bringing them back round to pass under the string and then wrapping them under themselves to lock them- actually lessens the maximum possible break angle. The tension created by passing the returning tie end under the string lifts the string a tad and the break angle diminishes.
So my question is...........why dont we simply tie a bloody knot in the string and then poke it through the bloody hole ?
It doesn't pull through- I've tried it- and the break angle increases. As well as enabling a lower saddle, and thus a lower action, increasing the break angle also increases the downward pressure of the string on the saddle and- I am told- such an increased pressure means better string contact and therefore better vibration transmission. Of course, that means an improved tone.
Am I talking cobblers here ?
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Post by colan on Feb 5, 2015 15:04:49 GMT
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Post by earwighoney on Feb 5, 2015 15:43:58 GMT
It's a fact- I'm told- that classical/Spanish/nylon string players like a high action on their guitars. You're wrong there. I'm a flamenco player and flamenco guitars, low actions are very desirable. GJ guitars, a higher action be it nylon or steel strings is seen to be more desirable. If you do want to want to lower the action, the saddle can be sanded down but you have to make sure there is enough break angle there otherwise intonation etc will be messed up. I don't know anything about the Gitane you have but does the guitar have a truss rod? What is the distance between the fret and the string at the 12th fret?
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Post by Banadog on Feb 5, 2015 17:00:00 GMT
I think it is mainly because the better quality classical strings are not available in ball end form. Also people seem to have trouble with the knot slipping on the nylon strings. Bridge beads might give you the benefit of using the strings of your choice, and the option to lower the saddle
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Post by colan on Feb 5, 2015 20:42:53 GMT
It's a fact- I'm told- that classical/Spanish/nylon string players like a high action on their guitars. You're wrong there. I'm a flamenco player and flamenco guitars, low actions are very desirable. GJ guitars, a higher action be it nylon or steel strings is seen to be more desirable. If you do want to want to lower the action, the saddle can be sanded down but you have to make sure there is enough break angle there otherwise intonation etc will be messed up. I don't know anything about the Gitane you have but does the guitar have a truss rod? What is the distance between the fret and the string at the 12th fret? Makes sense to me. Anything above 2mm - 12th fret to 6th string- feels like a bo 'n arra. There's a great deal of difference between the demands of classical and flamenco players though, surely ? I'll have to collar a GJ player and check out his guitar- as I simply can't believe that those top-end runs are performed on high actions. No truss rod on my nylon Gitane, no. The current action is the factory set-up, about 4mm, but it will be down to 2mm come Friday afternoon. Using the knot/ball-end method there's enough play in the existing saddles- but we'll make new ones .
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Post by colan on Feb 5, 2015 20:48:55 GMT
I think it is mainly because the better quality classical strings are not available in ball end form. Also people seem to have trouble with the knot slipping on the nylon strings. Bridge beads might give you the benefit of using the strings of your choice, and the option to lower the saddle I've ordered three sets of the D'addario ball-ends so I'll report back. I put a couple of grannies in my test string and it hasn't slipped at all. The bead solution sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on it, please ? I used to have an Indian vina with fine-tuning beads . There isn't a lot of room behind a bridge though.
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Post by Mike Floorstand on Feb 5, 2015 20:59:28 GMT
My guess is tying a knot rather than the traditional loop round could concentrate the stress on the string in a smaller area, so increasing the risk of breakage. But I have no empirical evidence to support this.
Also I believe the reason nylon strung instruments have a higher action is that nylon strings have a higher amplitude when vibrating, so more likely to buzz against the frets. But again, I have no expertise in this area so may be completely wrong...
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Post by jonnymosco on Feb 5, 2015 22:14:14 GMT
I tie a knot... but around a cut piece of string which goes from the low E hole to the high E hole on the bridge. The knot therefore doesn't need to be large; I also briefly melt the end of the three trebles to form a ball to ensure there's no slippage. You'd be surprised at how after time your top E knot will be pulled through the hole (unless it's a massive knot) if not tied around a string using using my system. This method is also very neat and works well for me. Carbon strings are more tricky using this technique. My flamenco has an 18 hole bridge (courtesy of Dave W), three for each string, the looping back and forth enables you to not have to use a knot, quite fashionable these days. You can also buy these I have some that are similar and are fine, but a faff to use. Re. the 4mm, due to the low tension of the nylon strings and the fact that the vibration/movement is great, the action needs to be high to reduce fret buzz... lots of fingerboards are scalloped to reduce this, mostly on the bass side where the movement is greater. Also, Spanish guitar necks are set at a surprisingly steep angle to the body which creates high action at the 12th fret, irrespective of the height of the saddle. 2mm on a flamenco clearly creates that percussive sound of the strings slapping the frets - Dave W worked out the angles and measurements on my flamenco, different to a classical and beyond me - the saddle is high with a good break angle. I don't find 4mm action (on the bass) high on a nylon string as less pressure is needed to fret in comparison with a steel string. So, not wanting to throw a spanner in the works, but just reducing the saddle is only addressing half the issue (as you say, reducing break angle too) and also viewing a classical as if it were constructed using the same principles as a steel string. Personally I'd try to live with it for a while and see if I get used to it. How's the action on your Alhambra? Jonny
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Post by colan on Feb 6, 2015 8:53:47 GMT
My guess is tying a knot rather than the traditional loop round could concentrate the stress on the string in a smaller area, so increasing the risk of breakage. But I have no empirical evidence to support this. Also I believe the reason nylon strung instruments have a higher action is that nylon strings have a higher amplitude when vibrating, so more likely to buzz against the frets. But again, I have no expertise in this area so may be completely wrong... Yes, you're right. I'm looking at higher tension nylon strings in order to address that. Mind you, Ol' Ugly hasn't had his saddles reduced yet and I've no idea what the tension specs. are on the ball-ended nylons I've ordered. They'll be delivered this morning, incidentally, and I ordered them through Amazon yesterday afternoon when I posted about them here.
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Post by colan on Feb 6, 2015 9:06:55 GMT
I tie a knot... but around a cut piece of string which goes from the low E hole to the high E hole on the bridge. The knot therefore doesn't need to be large; I also briefly melt the end of the three trebles to form a ball to ensure there's no slippage. You'd be surprised at how after time your top E knot will be pulled through the hole (unless it's a massive knot) if not tied around a string using using my system. This method is also very neat and works well for me. Carbon strings are more tricky using this technique. My flamenco has an 18 hole bridge (courtesy of Dave W), three for each string, the looping back and forth enables you to not have to use a knot, quite fashionable these days. You can also buy these I have some that are similar and are fine, but a faff to use. Re. the 4mm, due to the low tension of the nylon strings and the fact that the vibration/movement is great, the action needs to be high to reduce fret buzz... lots of fingerboards are scalloped to reduce this, mostly on the bass side where the movement is greater. Also, Spanish guitar necks are set at a surprisingly steep angle to the body which creates high action at the 12th fret, irrespective of the height of the saddle. 2mm on a flamenco clearly creates that percussive sound of the strings slapping the frets - Dave W worked out the angles and measurements on my flamenco, different to a classical and beyond me - the saddle is high with a good break angle. I don't find 4mm action (on the bass) high on a nylon string as less pressure is needed to fret in comparison with a steel string. So, not wanting to throw a spanner in the works, but just reducing the saddle is only addressing half the issue (as you say, reducing break angle too) and also viewing a classical as if it were constructed using the same principles as a steel string. Personally I'd try to live with it for a while and see if I get used to it. How's the action on your Alhambra? Jonny Good tips, Jonny, all of which I will try including the string ties you've linked to. I'm guessing that that's the same system as banadog's beads and I'll try making some myself. I have one of those little Dremmel doo-dads somewhere in the cobweb-embellished recesses of the tool-shed. I seldom play my guitars hard at all so a low action presents few problems for me . I'm also starting to use a small acoustic guitar amp. where the venue soaks up the acoustic sound. I can't play a high action so it's not a matter of adapting to it- but having said that I haven't yet explored the gypsy jazz plectrum technique and that's quite strident. I'll just reinstall higher saddles later on if necessary. My Alhambra is steel-strung and was about 3mm from new. He's 1.85 now and I can take almost full advantage of the cutaway. I also have a lovely old Di Giorgio student classical with a 2mm action due to lowering the saddle. The break angle is very shallow using standard string looping so I'll fit a set of the ball-ends and check out the results. With regard to Dave providing multiple holes in your bridge- another good idea- a local luthier, Earl Marsh, put secondary holes through the bridge of my Raimundo classical ( which I'll now be selling ) . That reduced the break angle too.
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Post by jonnymosco on Feb 6, 2015 9:19:52 GMT
To increase the break angle you can file away the bridge at the pin hole on a steel string, my Sobell has a bit of that going on... not sure how far you can take that though.
Have fun, there's nothing better than improving the playability of your own guitar.
Jonny
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Post by colan on Feb 6, 2015 9:29:50 GMT
I wish anybody good luck with that. Alhambra use through-the-bridge steel stringing.
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Post by jonnymosco on Feb 6, 2015 9:49:16 GMT
Just looked it up - lovely looking guitar, Lowdenesque!
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Post by colan on Feb 6, 2015 10:00:32 GMT
Yes, he's a beauty. Spanish heel too. The Lowden I've played had better separation though and was certainly ' creamier '. That's not the Spanish character though as you're no doubt aware. A bloody good grand's worth of guitar. ( Even though he's using a bass-strangler ) I need to take a break from the solid rosewood/spruce formula though and the Gitane is a huge leap- solid Port Orford cedar/cypress laminate . I never expected to find myself back into nylon strings but this DG-560 model has me fascinated- hence the urgency to find a string solution for a lower action. If it doesn't work out Thomann take returns up to 30 days, " no questions asked ".
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Post by colan on Feb 6, 2015 10:33:18 GMT
Well, the ball-ends are here and their tensions are indicated. Can somebody tell me if these would be rated as low/medium/high, please.
Top E 16.2 Lbs 7.35 Kg 11.9 5.4 11.7 5.31 17.8 8.07 16.5 7.48 Low E 15.2 Lbs 6.89 Kg
28/32/40/31/37/45
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