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Post by deathbyoatcake on Mar 23, 2015 14:29:00 GMT
I've got this guitar, for the time being, not one listed in my signature there, but I'm wondering about whether I'll be keeping it. I'll describe things and maybe I can get some opinions here from either experienced types or maybe even there's a repairer or luthier lurking. I won't name the guitar because while I'm naive about its problems I don't want to risk slandering its maker. That seems fair. It's factory-made but the brand has respect. This guitar is nearer the low end of the brand's range.
It's made of solid woods and was about a grand when new. Cedar over mahogany. I've watched several videos of other cedar/mahogany guitars and even with YouTube compression they all sound livelier than this guitar. Even with new strings, bronze or pb, it has no life. I'm wondering whether it is damp-damaged or whether its neck is set wrong or both. Its finish looks far from thick.
I've tried different saddle and nut materials, bone, Tusq, Corian. One thing I do see is that it sounds livelier with a low action, 2mm bass, 1.6mm treble, or at least the low strings sound brighter. It sounds not too bad when the bass side is almost impractically high too, about 3.5mm, though the intonation is starting to go off then anyway. 2mm at the bass isn't ideal for my preferred light or medium-light strings especially tuned a semitone down as I prefer. With average action, 2.4-2.75mm bass, 1.8mm treble, it's just got a nothing-y sound. There is about 2mm of saddle showing then, less when the action is low and the guitar's sounding presentable, so this made me think of the set of the neck.
I haven't got a long enough straight edge here but I'm thinking that if one were put along the neck it would be touching the top near the bridge, instead of touching the top of the bridge (bridge, not saddle) as often seems to be thought ideal.
My hygrometer tells me things are safe here, and the guitar is mostly left in a case when not being used. I know my home isn't ideal for guitars and have been rigorously protective of them since seeing a couple of necks go south in the past. I didn't have good habits once and left guitars out all the time before I understood. I'd see strings turn brown and so on without waking up about why. This guitar began its life here in this dull-sounding condition though, whether a shop, distributor or previous owner are to blame or nobody.
Aside from the issue as I'm experiencing it I have an academic sort of interest in why the guitar sounds so much livelier with a very low action. I mean, as it currently, 2.5mm to 1.8mm, brand new strings sound how they normally would when we want to take them off. The sound is 'all fundamental', no overtones, no sparkle. I would have put it down to the wood combo at one point but there are loads of great guitars made of the same woods, and even far eastern ones with laminate b&s that sound better.
Anyone here 'been there, done that'? Does damp-damage sound likely? I may try and lumber a relative, with a safer home, with the guitar for a period if so. How long would it need to stay in a home with normal central heating and decent windows - I have neither - before it's normalised? Assuming that if it's damp-damaged this can be reversed. And yes, I'd be watchful for it drying out and developing merely a different set of issues.
Otherwise it's going to be sold for a great loss with warnings to a beginner, but hopefully it won't come to it.
Thanks for all ideas.
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Mar 23, 2015 15:53:13 GMT
dboc
I'm puzzled as to why you have a suspicion of "damp damage". Do you think this happened before you bought the guitar or while you have had it and what sort of damage do you think occurred - left out in a shower of rain, prolonged exposure to very high humidity - 90% plus? Are there symptoms apart from how it sounds? If it occurred since you bought it have your other guitars suffered the same damage? But then you say that your hygrometer tells you that "things are safe" - what humidity does it show and what ranges of humidity has it registered?
Strings go brown due to being played a lot and not changed or acid sweat as well as due to exposure to high humidity. Also you refer to seeing "a couple of necks go south" in the past with hints that it is due to the "climate" of your home - tell us more.
Generally wooden acoustic guitars sound "livelier" the lower the humidity is and when exposed to higher humidity sound a bit more muffled as the wood absorbs moisture. As the humidity changes the guitar will usually adapt accordingly. Large movements of humidity in a short period of time are potentially dangerous as the wood reacts quickly too and can crack in low humidity or in high humidity distort an even loosen glue joints. This is sort of damage is pretty apparent.
As for the neck angle, if this is compensated for by reducing the height of the saddle then this will have an impact on the guitar's response as the strings exert less torque on the top. Having the neck reset with a saddle height raised back to where it was designed to be will increase the torque again. It might still sound lifeless to you though depending on how the guitar was made and braced.
Factory built guitars where tops and braces are made to the same thickness/size will follow the normal distribution curve - a few will be amazing, a few will be dogs and many will be average. I suspect that yours is suffering from "normal distribution curve damaged" rather than "damp damaged".
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Post by earwighoney on Mar 23, 2015 16:23:52 GMT
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Post by deathbyoatcake on Mar 23, 2015 18:11:09 GMT
Hello again and thanks.
Does the phrase 'normal distribution curve' mean something similar to 'within factory tolerances'? As in, it's above what would be called a factory second, regardless of whether it's an average example or better.
No, I don't think the guitar was left out in rain, I think it's about the previous and current owners' homes. These flats have had a bit of work done on them to deal with damp to an extent. We've had new roofing put in which after twenty years has put paid to drastic amounts of black mold on my ceiling for one visible bit of evidence. On top of this I was just expensively naive as an acoustic guitar fan. I should have used cases but have only just begun to adopt that practice in the last fourteen months or so. Yes, I think the guitar suffered prior to my buying it but that its new home isn't ideal - an improvement at a guess but not ideal.
The brown marks I saw on some in actual fact nylon strings were around the headstock area, so it's corrosion I'd guess. I've lived here since 1995 and this last winter period is the first without visible mould. The hygrometer can often read 70 here but has been 45-60 lately, and pleasingly nearer the lower end most of the time, whether this is the drastic improvement in the roofing and the insulation put in in the last eighteen months I don't know. It says 50 right now. I've seen a dreadnought from the LaSiDo factory go awry here and a Mexican Martin, and I had put this down to badly seasoned woods at the time. The Martin began its tenancy here with low action and much visible saddle. It left with little visible saddle but slightly higher action. Still I know others are clumsier/ more naive and I've had one eBay would-be bargain turn out to be dried out with a split top down the seam. I'm guessing this guitar I'm talking about has come from a home in the same shape mine _was_ in, unless it's the neck set. Money for a luthier is beyond me at the moment due to a grim scenario I've described in another thread so maybe I either need to get hold of a straight edge to investigate the neck angle or approach getting this guitar dried out a bit if it needs it. The Taylor pdf is initially worrying but if they can dry these guitars out as warranty practice maybe things will be fine. I suppose I'd just like to know what sort of conditions and time-scale are involved. My parents' home has radiators in every room - eeh, it's like t'future - and the hygrometer remained at 40 or a bit below when I left it there for a period. I've thought it could sit in a partly open gig bag on top of a wardrobe for a couple of weeks - not long enough? Too long?
I can hear liveliness in the strings of an electric guitar played acoustically, which lasts a good deal of time, so I'm thinking it's not perception or ageing ears that are making me feel like this about this acoustic guitar.
Let me know if I haven't fleshed out the situation enough. I think I have now although I do feel a bit embarrassed about my naivety and silly practices regarding the damp.
(As finish is only on one side of the wood and 'satin' finishes are a bit of an optical illusion I'm guessing a gloss finished guitar _wouldn't_ necessarily fare better in a damper home?)
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Post by vikingblues on Mar 24, 2015 8:29:28 GMT
Factory built guitars where tops and braces are made to the same thickness/size will follow the normal distribution curve - a few will be amazing, a few will be dogs and many will be average. I suspect that yours is suffering from "normal distribution curve damaged" rather than "damp damaged". That is so true, and I'll admit it came as a blinding revelation to me when I found out about it - so much then made sense as to what I'd experienced and felt and heard. There's a particularly good article (I think) by Ervin Somogyi who explores these aspects of acoustic guitar in a lot of detail. The linked article, "Some thoughts on the Differences between Handmade and Factory made Guitars", includes in section 8 expanded thoughts on what Dave has so rightly said above. Using an extremely variable raw material, wood, in a production process where everything is done to a standard specification is a real scattergun approach to obtaining high quality. Really the "dogs" coming from that distribution curve should be seconds but I suspect they will usually be sold as the real deal - as long as returns are within budget the factory will be happy. I have found a lot of the articles on Ervin Somogyis site very illuminating and recommend them. Interesting to hear what Dave said on the torque and the angle of the strings. The way the relationship between all the vibrating parts of a guitar can be affected by one apparently small change makes tinkering around with an acoustic guitar something I feel needs to be done with caution ... especially if the sound is very good before the change is attempted. Which is why I went for the new saddle blanks when I lowered the action on the Lowden - left me the escape route of putting the original saddles back in if the sound suffered. I think with what I've seen, felt, heard and read over the last year and a half I'll never risk buying an acoustic guitar without playing it, however good the reputation of the brand and model. There's just so many variable factors. Mark
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Mar 24, 2015 8:58:47 GMT
I once used the Planet Waves Humidipak system on a friend's guitar which had suffered from being kept in too dry an environment, and it certainly improved things. The handy thing about the Humidipak is that it works both ways, ie it will dry out an over humidified guitar or hydrate a dry one, depending on what the individual instrument needs. Might be worth a try.
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Mar 24, 2015 15:02:01 GMT
Hello again and thanks. Does the phrase 'normal distribution curve' mean something similar to 'within factory tolerances'? As in, it's above what would be called a factory second, regardless of whether it's an average example or better. No - the curve describes the tonal qualities of the guitars that the factory produces when it thicknesses and shapes the wood exactly the same - that's the bit within factory tolerances. Again nylon strings will go brown when exposed to the UV in daylight and I'd expect to see the impact of extreme damp on the metal parts - frets and tuners - and to see mould start to form inside the guitar. My daughter once lived in a basement flat where the landlord had made some "interesting" modifications to the extractor fans of the enclosed bathroom. The conditions in her flat were similar to the Far East as described in the Taylor damp guitar example - around 100% humidity - and the double necked acoustic lapslide guitar I had made for her literally started to unzip as the damp made the glue joints let go. There was also mould everywhere in the flat - including on her clothes in the wardrobe and her health began to suffer. That's what you'd see if that was the issue. Unless the wood permanently distorts - which should be pretty obvious - the guitar will re-acclimatise to the lower humidity levels you are now describing as the wood looses the excess moisture. So if the guitar isn't damaged and still sounds uninspiring it probably sounded uninspiring straight out of the factory when it was made. Guitars kept in dry or normal humidity environment will also end up needing neck resets - not due to damp but due to their design, manufacture and the relentless forces on guitars under string tension.
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Mar 24, 2015 15:05:42 GMT
Interesting to hear what Dave said on the torque and the angle of the strings. Mark, I didn't say anything about the angle of the strings, just about the height of the saddle above the top of the guitar - this is what determines the string torque. See my comments in this thread.
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Post by deathbyoatcake on Mar 24, 2015 16:51:14 GMT
Many thanks for these helpful and interesting responses - somehow I manage to feel an academic interest even when my beloved guitars feel under threat... (I think I remember Ervin being slated on AGF not so long back, and given its large number of factory and shop sponsors maybe that's unsurprising...) Regarding the Humidipak, given that dryness is never going to be a problem in this home is it more beneficial than getting some Silica gel sachets and keeping them in use?
It's good to hear my home isn't quite the guitar deathtrap I'd feared although I will always maintain caution now. A shock to consider also how a thousand quid guitar could be such a dog though really. Seems so wasteful of good wood and at least aspects of the design. Makes me wonder if I'll ever be far enough away from being naive to be able to choose a pleasing guitar.
A last rephrased question posed out of interest rather than through anxiety - is there some layman-friendly explanation of why this guitar sounded considerably better, brighter with the unfortunately impractically low action? I remember tinkering with a saddle for a Norman B20 about twelve years ago which sounded pretty good as it came but just at the point where the action was suddenly too low the tone itself was lovely and expensive sounding, glassy trebles, full but bright basses. I had just missed the 'sweet spot' in one vague sense but I feel curious enough to want that unpacked a bit.
p.s. I enjoyed Raptor Windfall, Dave.
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Mar 24, 2015 17:05:39 GMT
A last rephrased question posed out of interest rather than through anxiety - is there some layman-friendly explanation of why this guitar sounded considerably better, brighter with the unfortunately impractically low action? I remember tinkering with a saddle for a Norman B20 about twelve years ago which sounded pretty good as it came but just at the point where the action was suddenly too low the tone itself was lovely and expensive sounding, glassy trebles, full but bright basses. I had just missed the 'sweet spot' in one vague sense but I feel curious enough to want that unpacked a bit. p.s. I enjoyed Raptor Windfall, Dave. Judging and interpreting tone is such a personal and arbitrary process so without being present when you were doing the action adjustment experiment it's impossible for me to comment, It could be that the string gauges you had on were too heavy and "choking" the top and that lowering the action reduced the torque making the top more responsive. You would test that by raising the action again and trying a lighter gauge set of strings. It could be that your playing was better with the lower action than a higher one. It could be that the saddle wasn't fully in contact with the bottom of the slot in the bridge and you tinkering and lowering it corrected this. Could be a million other things too including the famous psycho acoustics we all suffer from from time to time - you think you heard a difference but maybe there wasn't one. I'm not sure how you could hear the sweet spot when the action was "too low" as all you would hear is fret buzzes and rattles. if you could get it low and playable without these to hear the "expensive sounding, glassy trebles, full but bright basses" then you could have set it up there. Thank you - I'm glad you liked "Raptor Windfall"
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Mar 24, 2015 17:08:08 GMT
I don't know how it works, but in theory the benefit of the Humidipak is that it will always seek to maintain humidity at the optimum level, ie 45-50%. So there's no danger of inadvertent over or under humidification. I guess if you just used silica gel packs you'd have to check that you hadn't gone too far in the dry direction, though admittedly that doesn't look likely in the environment you're describing.
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Post by deathbyoatcake on Mar 24, 2015 17:19:06 GMT
I suppose I basically just overshot by a very slight way - the B20 wasn't producing only non-stop buzzes but wasn't at that saddle height open to much in the way of dynamics in terms of picking strengths. I am certainly now much better at making sure saddle bottoms are right, it's quite an art it seems, so that could certainly be involved.
But overall, thanks, I think I'm brimming with information now and am sufficiently primed, much appreciated.
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