Andy P
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,982
My main instrument is: Taylor 312ce, Guild D25, Deering 5 string banjo
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Post by Andy P on May 3, 2015 10:59:26 GMT
As ocarolan knows, I'm having a few teething problems with my Lowden S25. He's being most helpful, fine fellow that he is, but I thought I'd throw it open to the forum in general and see what experience others have had. Briefly, after a couple of months, the action had lifted a little. I took it back to Project Music in Exeter who gave it a tweak. That fixed it. The neck relief was minimal. A couple of weeks on and the neck is now dead straight. Although it sounds ok when finger-picked gently, any attempt to produce more volume - and especially when using a flat-pick - and there's a definite "ting" sound, most noticeable on the 2nd string, reminiscent of a piece of metal being lightly tapped with a small hammer. There's an almost imperceptible but definite buzz on lower strings too. It doesn't appear to be a problem with the nut or saddle, but the neck profile. ocarolan has suggested a couple of measures but I thought I should keep Project Music informed and also ask them if taking it to a local luthier would negate the warranty (I live 100 miles away from Exeter!). I e-mailed them yesterday and received the following reply, well after store closing hours: "Hi Andy I am sorry to hear that you are still experiencing an issue. I am sure it is just a very simple set up issue and the fact that as you say the guitar is still settling in. Adjusting a truss rod is not really a structural procedure and as long as its adjusted correctly and carefully it will not invalidate the warranty. Adjusting a truss rod to alter the action of an instrument is really more like topping up the oil level in a new car or changing a fan belt. Even adjusting the saddle or top nut would not invalidate the warranty as these are serviceable adjustable parts of the instruments. However any work would of course have to be done sensibly and sympathetically and I would advise that you only look to use trusted and experienced individuals to work on the action. Its only if you were to actually work on the wood and the structure of the instrument that I could foresee any warranty issue. But really all the good builders know that players need to have instruments adjusted along the way to ensure any instrument it playing properly for the individual and to accommodate changing climactic conditions, so standard and simply action adjustments will not cause you a warranty issue. So if you wanted to ask a local luthier and you know one that you were 100% happy with and fully trusted then I can see no issue with asking him to have a look at the guitar and to make simple and minor adjustments. However Lowden guitars can react a little differently to other brands but they re tough and resilient. It may be a good Idea to make sure that he has worked on Lowdens before. Of course if you were able to make arrangements to drop in store again we would do whatever we had to to ensure the guitar was once again playing correctly for you. I know you live a long way off and we will work around any issue for you as best we possibly can. May I ask do you live in a fairly modern property or does it have an older design and build ? Does it happen to be a stone character type of property ? And do you know if it has a damp membrane as part of the build ? I only ask because a few years ago I lived in an old farmhouse and it was fairly damp. I had no end of issues with some of my guitars and it tended to affect the better quality ones more for some reason. I just thought that it may be relevant ask the question as humidity issues can be problematic but can be dealt with in several ways I am sorry you are not currently able to enjoy your guitar fully. I hope you enjoy the rest of the bank holiday. All the best and I look forward to hearing back from you. Regards Lee St Pier Project Music" I reckon he's hit the nail on the head. Yes, we do live in an old granite cottage without a damp membrane. Although the house is double-glazed and well-heated, it's in south-west Cornwall, a notoriously damp part of the world (just ask my poor old joints). We also have to keep it well ventilated to prevent radon build-up and the bedroom windows are kept open at night whatever the weather. The guitar has been living in the spare bedroom, next to the window! Not any more though: it's moved in downstairs in the room with the dehumidifier. So, I'm anticipating some advice about dehumidifying from Project Music (whose after-sales service is second to none). Meanwhile my guitar sounds slightly poorly. I reckon the general tone has suffered a little too since it moved down here. It's not sounding quite as crisp as it was, although that could be my paranoia, which is always at its most intense when I think there's a problem with one of my guitars. It's a bit of a pain though as I went through a similar, very drawn-out and never entirely resolved episode with my Breedlove.
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Luthier
Aemulor et ambitiosior
Posts: 3,544
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Post by davewhite on May 3, 2015 11:36:31 GMT
Andy,
The first thing I'd do is buy some cheap analogue hygrometers, calibrate them and put them in the rooms in your house where you keep your guitars. Then take a note of the readings throughout the day over a number of weeks. First find out if you have an excessively humid environment and to what degree before you assume you have and start looking for fixes for your Lowden.
I'd also put some thermometers in the room and take readings to go with the humidity ones - temperature and humidity are related.
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Post by vikingblues on May 3, 2015 15:27:20 GMT
As far as the question of getting set up work done on a Lowden.
I asked this of Lowden in October last year:- "I'm just looking to get the action dropped a bit - 12th fret 2.5mm and 2.2mm is a bit high for me at the 12th fret" I pointed out it was a 300 mile round trip to Celtic Chords where I got the guitar.
The reply confirmed I would need to use GuitarGuitar in Edinburgh who are an authorised Lowden dealer. Lowden said:- "When it comes to any set up work or repairs, we can't guarantee a luthier who is not an officially authorised Lowden Luthier under warranty if something goes wrong."
Mark
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Andy P
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,982
My main instrument is: Taylor 312ce, Guild D25, Deering 5 string banjo
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Post by Andy P on May 3, 2015 17:16:51 GMT
Thanks for the advice Dave. I think it's a good idea to get some data on humidity and temperature. I'll have a browse for some equipment.
Thanks for that warning Mark. There's no point in taking risks and I shall abide by Lowdens' policy. Could be another 200 mile round trip on the cards!
By the way does the team think that excessive humidity lessens string life?
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Luthier
Aemulor et ambitiosior
Posts: 3,544
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Post by davewhite on May 3, 2015 18:58:44 GMT
By the way does the team think that excessive humidity lessens string life? Definitely if you play them under water
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andrewjw
C.O.G.
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Post by andrewjw on May 4, 2015 5:16:06 GMT
Firstly I'm really sorry to hear you are having problems with your new guitar...very frustrating and disappointing to say the least. The advice that Project Music has given you possibly gives the impression that the lowered action you are experiencing is being caused by excess humidity ...as someone who also lives in the damp SW and in an older property my experience is that excess humidity has exactly the opposite effect..ie the top of the instrument swells slightly causing the action to rise ...also seems to "dull" the tone slightly. There is an interesting article on the Taylor website about this problem.. www.taylorguitars.com/sites/default/files/10_SymptomsofaWetGuitar.pdfI find that keeping our instruments in their cases when not in use helps keep them more stable...we also use a "background" dehumidifier during the Winter which helps keep the humidity levels down...I have a cheap hygrometer which shows the effect of using this very well. Hope you get to the bottom of this !
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Post by vikingblues on May 4, 2015 6:34:53 GMT
Firstly I'm really sorry to hear you are having problems with your new guitar...very frustrating and disappointing to say the least. I too would echo these thoughts. If it was me I don't think I'd be able to sound so calm about to as you do about the problems you're having Andy - I'd be ranting and spitting teeth (or is that feathers?). I'm afraid I have no experience of this issue and cannot give constructive advice but there's plenty of good advice from those here that know. With just 18 authorised dealers in the whole of the UK I suppose it's not surprising that there will be some areas not well covered. Hopefully the advice you're getting here and the help of the experts will get things back to normal and let you enjoy the guitar again. You could be right about the way your guitar not sounding quite as crisp as it did could be down to paranoia - I know I get this too when I have "issues" with a guitar. I also find generally there are days when the sound seems a bit off and the next day it's fine - never been sure if it's my mental health or ears at fault or if it's the guitar. Good luck! Mark
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brianr2
C.O.G.
Posts: 3,056
My main instrument is: Brook Lyn guitar
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Post by brianr2 on May 4, 2015 6:50:31 GMT
You could be right about the way your guitar not sounding quite as crisp as it did could be down to paranoia - I know I get this too when I have "issues" with a guitar. I also find generally there are days when the sound seems a bit off and the next day it's fine - never been sure if it's my mental health or ears at fault or if it's the guitar. Good luck! You are not alone with this. There are times when, despite very careful tuning, my guitar suddenly sounds wrong, either too sharp on the high strings or dull and lifeless. I used to think it was either the strings or some kind of aural hallucination. But increasingly, I find it is tension in the fretting hand, causing me to hang on for grim death, of the state of the fingernails on my right hand. Either way - and this seems a bizarre confession - a brief interlude with a glass nail file often does the trick, either through sorting any physical problems with my right hand or providing the psychological distraction to relax my left hand. What strange paths guitar playing can lead you down... Brian
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Andy P
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,982
My main instrument is: Taylor 312ce, Guild D25, Deering 5 string banjo
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Post by Andy P on May 4, 2015 19:44:19 GMT
Firstly I'm really sorry to hear you are having problems with your new guitar...very frustrating and disappointing to say the least. The advice that Project Music has given you possibly gives the impression that the lowered action you are experiencing is being caused by excess humidity ...as someone who also lives in the damp SW and in an older property my experience is that excess humidity has exactly the opposite effect..ie the top of the instrument swells slightly causing the action to rise ...also seems to "dull" the tone slightly. There is an interesting article on the Taylor website about this problem.. www.taylorguitars.com/sites/default/files/10_SymptomsofaWetGuitar.pdfI find that keeping our instruments in their cases when not in use helps keep them more stable...we also use a "background" dehumidifier during the Winter which helps keep the humidity levels down...I have a cheap hygrometer which shows the effect of using this very well. Hope you get to the bottom of this ! Thanks very much Andrew andrewjw. I'm sure my guitar is only showing minor symptoms, if any, of a humidity-related problem at this stage, but the info on the Taylor website is useful. Interesting that your experience is that the action rises - have you found it causes the neck relief to increase? I think the tone may have dulled slightly but there are other variables, i.e. string condition and the state of my nails! I'm certainly going to invest in a hygrometer/thermometer whatever.
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Andy P
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,982
My main instrument is: Taylor 312ce, Guild D25, Deering 5 string banjo
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"8e2be1"}
Mini-Profile Name Color: 060607
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Post by Andy P on May 4, 2015 19:50:52 GMT
Firstly I'm really sorry to hear you are having problems with your new guitar...very frustrating and disappointing to say the least. I too would echo these thoughts. If it was me I don't think I'd be able to sound so calm about to as you do about the problems you're having Andy - I'd be ranting and spitting teeth (or is that feathers?). I'm afraid I have no experience of this issue and cannot give constructive advice but there's plenty of good advice from those here that know. With just 18 authorised dealers in the whole of the UK I suppose it's not surprising that there will be some areas not well covered. Hopefully the advice you're getting here and the help of the experts will get things back to normal and let you enjoy the guitar again. You could be right about the way your guitar not sounding quite as crisp as it did could be down to paranoia - I know I get this too when I have "issues" with a guitar. I also find generally there are days when the sound seems a bit off and the next day it's fine - never been sure if it's my mental health or ears at fault or if it's the guitar. Good luck! Mark Thanks Mark. I do appear remarkably calm actually, although I'm like the proverbial duck sailing gracefully across the pond whilst my feet are peddling like hell. To be honest I'm finding it impossible to be objective about the sound quality any more. I just need to let an expert or two pass judgement. I've already had one - I played it to ocarolan via skype and he said straight away that it didn't sound great. I think I mustn't over-react and be patient. I'm sure a tweak or two and some practical measures to prevent over-humidity will sort it out. Fingers crossed as I type this
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Andy P
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,982
My main instrument is: Taylor 312ce, Guild D25, Deering 5 string banjo
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Post by Andy P on May 4, 2015 19:55:34 GMT
You are not alone with this. There are times when, despite very careful tuning, my guitar suddenly sounds wrong, either too sharp on the high strings or dull and lifeless. I used to think it was either the strings or some kind of aural hallucination. But increasingly, I find it is tension in the fretting hand, causing me to hang on for grim death, of the state of the fingernails on my right hand. Either way - and this seems a bizarre confession - a brief interlude with a glass nail file often does the trick, either through sorting any physical problems with my right hand or providing the psychological distraction to relax my left hand. What strange paths guitar playing can lead you down... Brian Whatever works for you Brian. I'm still searching for my remedy! Thanks for your help. It's good to know some of you have been there. Of course it's peeing down and foggy outside now. I reckon the humidity is probably doing the Apprentice thing and giving it 110%
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andrewjw
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,737
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Post by andrewjw on May 5, 2015 5:24:54 GMT
Firstly I'm really sorry to hear you are having problems with your new guitar...very frustrating and disappointing to say the least. The advice that Project Music has given you possibly gives the impression that the lowered action you are experiencing is being caused by excess humidity ...as someone who also lives in the damp SW and in an older property my experience is that excess humidity has exactly the opposite effect..ie the top of the instrument swells slightly causing the action to rise ...also seems to "dull" the tone slightly. There is an interesting article on the Taylor website about this problem.. www.taylorguitars.com/sites/default/files/10_SymptomsofaWetGuitar.pdfI find that keeping our instruments in their cases when not in use helps keep them more stable...we also use a "background" dehumidifier during the Winter which helps keep the humidity levels down...I have a cheap hygrometer which shows the effect of using this very well. Hope you get to the bottom of this ! Thanks very much Andrew andrewjw. I'm sure my guitar is only showing minor symptoms, if any, of a humidity-related problem at this stage, but the info on the Taylor website is useful. Interesting that your experience is that the action rises - have you found it causes the neck relief to increase? I think the tone may have dulled slightly but there are other variables, i.e. string condition and the state of my nails! I'm certainly going to invest in a hygrometer/thermometer whatever. No...I've not noticed that minor changes in humidity have affected the neck relief. Do you know what PM actually did when they "tweaked" the guitar to slightly lower the action? If all they did was to tighten the truss rod it would seem logical to assume that as the neck has "settled" post tightening it may now need another "tweak" the other way. I should check the neck relief...if you fret a string at the 1st and 14th frets simultaneously there should be a gap of about .007 at the 7th fret between the bottom of the string and the top of the fret. If there is much less than this the neck relief needs increasing by loosening the truss rod. I only make adjustments by small amounts at a time...an eighth of a turn..and then allow the guitar to settle for at least a day before re measuring and making any further adjustment if required. Unless you are blessed with three hands putting a capo on the the 1st or 14th fret ( or both!) makes this process much easier. The action of a guitar is usually established by making adjustments to the saddle height..assuming the nut height is correct.Somewhere on the forum there is a definitive guide to all things re action and the relationship between nut , saddle and neck relief by resident guru Keith...well worth a look if you can find it.
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Andy P
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,982
My main instrument is: Taylor 312ce, Guild D25, Deering 5 string banjo
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Post by Andy P on May 5, 2015 14:07:25 GMT
Thanks Andrew andrewjw. That gap is around .004 so a truss-rod adjustment is called for. Watch this space. I'll check out Keith's guide.
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Post by creamburmese on May 5, 2015 14:47:10 GMT
I'm very sympathetic to this issue - buying a pricey new guitar then having to endlessly fiddle with it to keep it playing at its best must be very frustrating. However so far as tone goes, I've found that humidity really does make a huge difference. My Brook (as you know) was built in Devon where I estimate the relative humidity rarely drops below 70% ... when I first got it over to the US I couldn't figure out why it didn't sound so good - but with heating and AC over here we have to work to keep the RH over 30%. I kept it in its case with those planet waves humidipacks, which stopped it cracking but didn't do much for the sound. Then on one of the rare occasions when it was dampish with no heat or cooling running, the RH in my guitar room shot up to 55% and lo and behold, the guitar sounded great again! So now I run a humidifier in that room, summer and winter, to keep the RH around 50%. Conversely, if the RH gets much higher than that I have a couple of guitars that sound like they are stuffed with wet socks. So I guess it partially depends on the guitar - perhaps related to the humidity where the guitar was built? Maybe one of the luthiers could comment. Anyway - to get to my point - those humidipacks are supposed to work both ways - absorbing water if the humidity gets above their set point (and there are other brands available that have different specified humidities they equilibrate to...) so conceivably if the Lowden was kept in its case with some of those that are at its preferred humidity, that would at least take away that variable...
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Andy P
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,982
My main instrument is: Taylor 312ce, Guild D25, Deering 5 string banjo
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Mini-Profile Name Color: 060607
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Post by Andy P on May 5, 2015 21:05:50 GMT
That's interesting creamburmese. I'll do some research about those humidipacks. RH down here neat the Cornish coast probably averages around the 80% mark. Oh to be in a drier climate!
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