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Post by andyhowell on Oct 9, 2015 21:38:49 GMT
Well.......I had a K&K pick-up fitted to my Lowden today. It sounded great through the amp in the workshop, even without going through a pre-amp. Got it home, connected it up via the Orchid into the Acus One-8 and....disappointing. I've tried all combinations of EQ but basically the treble is well top-end heavy, jangly and tinny sounding even at fairly low level, and the bass is thuddy and dull. I'll try again in the cold light of day tomorrow but initial impression is not good, not at all good in fact. It looks like it's money wasted as my Breedlove (with active pick-up) sounds magnificent through the amp. In fact, I'm now wondering why I bothered electrifying the Lowden (at a total coast of £300 inc the Orchid) at all! Oh dear! How does the Lowden sound plugged directly into the Acus and adjusted using the amp's EQ? If the Orchid was powered properly (which I assume it was) then I suspect you have a problem with matched impedance. I think S Kightly uses Headway pickups with some of his instruments - active system with a powerful output and fine pre balanced signal. Can you change impede de on the preamp or amp?
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 9, 2015 22:03:09 GMT
Looking at the Acus, it wants a high impedence signal which might be the issue. The Orchid does not adjust for impedence in the way the Headway does, which I think Robbie uses with his K & K.
Firstly, can you get a decent sound by using even drastic EQ? If so then you just need to know your starting point. A struggle beyond that might be a problem.
Give Orchid a ring and they wil be helpful. Borrow another pre and try the combination through that to see which element of the chain is problematical!
Worth a play and a few phone calls! We are talking electronics after all!
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 9, 2015 22:15:31 GMT
Andy P - Oh dear - it certainly sounds like something is amiss. I have no trouble with K&K minis via Orchid into AER or mixer. Very easy to get a good sound with minimal tweaking. Although passive, there should be plenty of output, even unpreamped direct into a mixer. As such, I can't see that there is an inherent impedance problem as Andy suggests. His other suggestion is good though - try the guitar straight into Acus. If the problem is still there, it could possibly be something like one of the transducers or the wire from it being duff. Have a feel around inside and try gently tapping each one and/or jiggling the wire to each whilst plugged in - the same noises should emanate from each. As a very outside possibility, the installer may have used the supplied double sided tape to fit the transducers - this will certainly give a much lower output than a superglued installation. Also try the Breedlove via the Orchid too and check that the latter functions as expected. Hope you can get this sorted Andy. Keith
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 9, 2015 22:20:34 GMT
Looking at the Acus, it wants a high impedence signal which might be the issue.............. The jack inputs no doubt do, but surely the Acus XLR input sockets are compatible with the Orchid XLR output.... Keith
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Post by Andy P on Oct 9, 2015 23:51:19 GMT
Thanks for your help here guys, it really is much appreciated.
I'm pretty sure the K&K installation is fine. It sounded fine through the amp in the workshop and I've just double-checked direct into the Acus: with high at +2, mids at -15 and low at -8 it's a nice well-balanced sound. High any lower and it lacks bite, low any higher and it's a bit boomy. Of course without a pre-amp the volume will be an issue (not that I've tried it very high at 12.30am!).
I tried the Breedlove through the Orchid and that's fine (although it doesn't need it at all).
So the issue seems to be one of incompatability between the K&K and the Orchid.
I should be able to return the Orchid and ask for a full refund even though it's not faulty and that's what I'm inclined to do just now. Off the top of my head I don't know anyone around from whom I can borrow another pre-amp but I can discuss with the Guitar Doctor next week.
By the way @robbiej, I'm bowled over by the Acus - it's sensational!
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 10, 2015 0:05:18 GMT
Thanks for your help here guys, it really is much appreciated. I'm pretty sure the K&K installation is fine. It sounded fine through the amp in the workshop and I've just double-checked direct into the Acus: with high at +2, mids at -15 and low at -8 it's a nice well-balanced sound. High any lower and it lacks bite, low any higher and it's a bit boomy. Of course without a pre-amp the volume will be an issue (not that I've tried it very high at 12.30am!). Excellent! The K@K and installation should be OK then. It'll be interesting to try when you can see what the volume is really like - may be less of an issue than you think. I tried the Breedlove through the Orchid and that's fine (although it doesn't need it at all). So the issue seems to be one of incompatability between the K&K and the Orchid. I have used 4 different guitars, a mandolin and an octave mandolin each with K@K pickups through my Orchid with no problem at all, so there can surely be no inherent incompatibility. Have you tried a different XLR lead (and/or checked for correct wiring of the leads) to connect the Orchid to the Acus? I should be able to return the Orchid and ask for a full refund even though it's not faulty and that's what I'm inclined to do just now. Off the top of my head I don't know anyone around from whom I can borrow another pre-amp but I can discuss with the Guitar Doctor next week. I can post you a K&K Pure XLR preamp to try if you like Andy - it has an XLR output for direct comparison with the Orchid, but also has a jack output which could be handy to free up yer Acus XLR inputs. Keith
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Post by Andy P on Oct 10, 2015 0:06:17 GMT
HOLD ON! I just tried turning the EQs on the amp almost all the way to the left (-14) (I thought they needed to be flat). With the Orchid EQ high at quarter to, mid all the way to the left and low at quarter to it's not sounding too bad at all.
I need to go to bed (WAY past my bedtime!) and revisit it all tomorrow.
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 10, 2015 8:06:54 GMT
That seems to be what I thought. According to the manual ten Orchid is expecting a high impedence signal and the K&K provides something on the low end. There must be a fix to this - aid seriously suggest a chat with Orchid. There is nothing wrong with the Lowden. There may be something wrong with the K&K. Or there may be a simple fix for the impedence match (if indeed there is one).
Don't give up, the answer should be straightforward. Orchid will have dealt with this before.
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 10, 2015 8:36:13 GMT
That seems to be what I thought. According to the manual ten Orchid is expecting a high impedence signal and the K&K provides something on the low end. There must be a fix to this - aid seriously suggest a chat with Orchid. There is nothing wrong with the Lowden. There may be something wrong with the K&K. Or there may be a simple fix for the impedence match (if indeed there is one). Don't give up, the answer should be straightforward. Orchid will have dealt with this before. andyhowell - surely the XLR input on the Acus is not expecting a high impedance?! Andy P is connecting the K&K to the Acus via the Orchid - of necessity this requires use of an XLR lead from the Orchid to the XLR input on the Acus, hence the output impedance of the K&K is not relevant, and the XLR to XLR connection of Orchid to Acus should be fine in that regard too. Keith
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Post by Andy P on Oct 10, 2015 9:27:21 GMT
I've just given it a decent work-out with a bit more volume. There's no doubt that setting the EQ on the Acus almost as far to the left as they will go gets rid of that harsh treble. By turning the high on the Orchid at ten past I can get some attack. I would say the overall sound is still slightly muddy and, compared with what I can get out of the Breedlove, rather underwhelming.
I will have a chat to John at Orchid but I have a feeling this is as good as it's going to get.
I note your discussion about impedance but I don't understand it!!
A bit more playing today and let's see how I'm feeling about it later. Having said that, I think I need to just put it all away for a day or two and immerse myself in the rugby instead!
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Post by jackorion on Oct 10, 2015 12:28:35 GMT
Well I played out for the first time with my Orchid and I loved it!
Allowed me to boost the volume of my Anthem SL pickup a little to give the soundman a good output, I cut a little mids and boosting a little low end and that was it!
with regards to the k&k problems above, my understanding is that the k&k likes to see a 1mOhm input, which I believe the Orchid has - alternatively you can plug into any Boss pedal before the DI and it'll correct the impedance...
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Post by Andy P on Oct 10, 2015 12:51:11 GMT
Thanks Ben jackorion. Glad it's worked out for you. I may well end up getting to like it! Thanks for the tip.
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 10, 2015 14:17:56 GMT
andyhowell - surely the XLR input on the Acus is not expecting a high impedance?! Andy P is connecting the K&K to the Acus via the Orchid - of necessity this requires use of an XLR lead from the Orchid to the XLR input on the Acus, hence the output impedance of the K&K is not relevant, and the XLR to XLR connection of Orchid to Acus should be fine in that regard too. Keith The balanced XLR input should allow you to deal with low impedance and low output level signals — I read the manual wrong! In my experience impedance is often the culprit but trying to establish which part of the signal chain is the problem is a pain. There are both Gain and Volume out controls as you would expect and a three channel EQ (low/mid/treble) and an Effect channel (which might be worth checking over). It should all work. Either the Orchid or the K&K seem to be at fault and I suspect there might be a fault with the K&K. There is no way you hold be having to use such extreme EQ settings to get an acceptable tone. In all honesty the EQ on the amp should be simply set flat if using a preamp. The other consideration is that somehow the phantom power to the Orchid is not right. But I'd guess the problem is more at the pick up end. Orchid will have seen this before. An interesting thread to me this. I've fancied buying an Orchid but have been put off by two things — the lack of battery power and the lack of switchable impedance. For many of the informal meetings I play battery power is really needed. Phantom power to a preamp suggests that this is to be used in a situation where you dan properly soundcheck and where there is someone who knows how the run the mixing desk (which you can't always rely on). Sonically though, the Orchid is always praised for being super clear. Something is wrong here somewhere.
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 10, 2015 14:23:50 GMT
I note your discussion about impedance but I don't understand it!! Understood! Basically, this relates to the tolerance (or lack of) inherent in a circuit. Active pickups kick out a bigger signal than passive. Some preamps (such as the Headway I use) will have a two or three way setting to match the impedance of a pickup — in other words it boosts the passive signals more (at least that's what I think). What I do know is the impedance problems are common in amplification and I'm told can be a particular issue in running a signal from a preamp to an amp !!! Some sound people I know don't like you using a preamp for this vey reason, they would always prefer you to go direct to the desk. That being said I would be staggered if there was in inherent problem in this setup. Something is wrong somewhere.
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Post by Andy P on Oct 10, 2015 15:50:46 GMT
Thanks for explaining that Andy, much appreciated.
I've just taken the K&K out of the equation. I ran the Breedlove (with active pick-up) direct into the Acus and then through the Orchid. The EQ settings on the Acus were identical: high and low at 12 o'clock (which I take to mean flat) and mid right round to the left. Direct it was fine. Through the Orchid it was too trebley, even with the high right round to the left. This would seem to isolate the Orchid as the source of the issue.
I'll get in touch with John at Orchid and see what he has to say.
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