ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 10, 2015 16:51:00 GMT
........................ I've just taken the K&K out of the equation. I ran the Breedlove (with active pick-up) direct into the Acus and then through the Orchid. The EQ settings on the Acus were identical: high and low at 12 o'clock (which I take to mean flat) and mid right round to the left. Direct it was fine. Through the Orchid it was too trebley, even with the high right round to the left. This would seem to isolate the Orchid as the source of the issue...... It's beginning to look that way, though as when you played the Breedlove direct into the Acus you must have used one of the 1/4 jack inputs, and going via the Orchid necessitates using an XLR lead from Orchid to XLR input on Acus it doesn't entirely rule out i) your XLR lead possibly being wired incorrectly - have you tried several leads? Have you checked how the Acus inputs want these to be wired? ii) the XLR input circuit on the Acus having a problem - have you tried both XLR inputs? - have you tried the Orchid into another amp? Would be worth trying those things really. But if still stymied, can you take the whole kit and caboodle down to your Guitar Doctor and demonstrate the situation to him while he watches and listens? The solution has to be something simple, but there's more elimation still to do before implicating any specific component in the chain. Great fun innit? (Not!) Large glass or three of Merlot this evening for you mate! Keith
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Post by jackorion on Oct 10, 2015 18:24:48 GMT
How are your gain settings when changing between the Orchid through the XLR and the Line in?
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Oct 10, 2015 19:10:37 GMT
i) your XLR lead possibly being wired incorrectly - have you tried several leads? Have you checked how the Acus inputs want these to be wired? ii) the XLR input circuit on the Acus having a problem - have you tried both XLR inputs? - have you tried the Orchid into another amp? Would be worth trying those things really. But if still stymied, can you take the whole kit and caboodle down to your Guitar Doctor and demonstrate the situation to him while he watches and listens? The solution has to be something simple, but there's more elimation still to do before implicating any specific component in the chain. Great fun innit? (Not!) Large glass or three of Merlot this evening for you mate! Keith Panic over!!! I tried a different XLR cable and there's a big improvement. Thanks Keith I now believe everything in the system is working as it should. Having said that, in general I have to confess that I'm somewhat underwhelmed in the overall sound quality. It doesn't capture the magic of the Lowden that's for sure so I will probably be sticking to the Breedlove for gigs. I will follow your advice and take the whole shooting match over to the Guitar Dr for a second opinion. I guess our hobby isn't alone in being something that one can chuck a lot of money for little or no gain and we have to learn from experience. As Mrs B is away I'm having to finish off a bottle of Muscadet on my own this evening, but not before attending to the bottle of Jack Daniels in the cupboard (yes I know, but it was given to me and it would be rude not to drink it). Now then jackorion I've been meaning to ask about gain settings on the amp. What's the general rule of thumb?
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Post by vikingblues on Oct 10, 2015 19:39:21 GMT
Sorry to hear you've been having all these problems. It's a damn lottery trying to find the right gear to get an amplified / mic'd up sound of some sort for a guitar - it's a real pain when the extra qualities of a very good guitar don't seem to make it through to the end of the recording chain. I must admit that I've thought seriously several times about getting some sort of pick up system on my Lowden and every time it's got near to being a reality I've got cold feet and binned the idea. I'm not sure your story has encouraged me to return to those thoughts. Good luck with getting the right solution - I hope it will be arrived at soon. Mark
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Post by jackorion on Oct 10, 2015 20:33:49 GMT
i) your XLR lead possibly being wired incorrectly - have you tried several leads? Have you checked how the Acus inputs want these to be wired? ii) the XLR input circuit on the Acus having a problem - have you tried both XLR inputs? - have you tried the Orchid into another amp? Would be worth trying those things really. But if still stymied, can you take the whole kit and caboodle down to your Guitar Doctor and demonstrate the situation to him while he watches and listens? The solution has to be something simple, but there's more elimation still to do before implicating any specific component in the chain. Great fun innit? (Not!) Large glass or three of Merlot this evening for you mate! Keith Panic over!!! I tried a different XLR cable and there's a big improvement. Thanks Keith I now believe everything in the system is working as it should. Having said that, in general I have to confess that I'm somewhat underwhelmed in the overall sound quality. It doesn't capture the magic of the Lowden that's for sure so I will probably be sticking to the Breedlove for gigs. I will follow your advice and take the whole shooting match over to the Guitar Dr for a second opinion. I guess our hobby isn't alone in being something that one can chuck a lot of money for little or no gain and we have to learn from experience. As Mrs B is away I'm having to finish off a bottle of Muscadet on my own this evening, but not before attending to the bottle of Jack Daniels in the cupboard (yes I know, but it was given to me and it would be rude not to drink it). Now then jackorion I've been meaning to ask about gain settings on the amp. What's the general rule of thumb? Well the thing with electrifying an acoustic that everyone forgets is that, once it goes through a pickup and a speaker, it's no longer an acoustic - it's an electric (whether you like it or not!). Playing and hearing a pure acoustic instrument is a complicated thing - you're hearing the sound of the whole instrument - the front, back, sides, neck - you're feeling the vibrations in your body - you're hearing the reflected sound from the rest of the room - NO pickup is ever going to replicate that (I would also argue that no single microphone can replicate that either) and so the whole concept of amplifying an acoustic guitar is based upon compromise. Nothing, not even a million pounds worth of equipment, will capture the true sound of your Lowden as you're playing it so what you need to aim for a good 'electric-fied' sound - a sound that approximate the experience of hearing an acoustic instrument but in such a way that it can be heard over other noises... Regarding gain settings - the rule of thumb is to get the gain 'up' in the early stages as you introduce more noise with each gain stage you run through. So, with your setup, I would probably run the Orchid volume at 1/2 to 3/4 and then use the acus gain to bring it to an acceptable level where the full range of the channel volume control and the master volume control is useable... There's no point backing off the gain on the channel just to crank the channel volume and there's no point cranking the channel volume just to turn the master right down, if you see what I mean...
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Post by jackorion on Oct 10, 2015 20:34:52 GMT
by the way, this would suggest that the cable you were using before wasn't a balanced one - hence the thiness as you were essentially hearing an 'out of phase' sound...
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 11, 2015 11:08:23 GMT
Pleased you've sorted it out. Didn't think of the cable!
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Oct 11, 2015 12:33:31 GMT
I must admit that I've thought seriously several times about getting some sort of pick up system on my Lowden and every time it's got near to being a reality I've got cold feet and binned the idea. I'm not sure your story has encouraged me to return to those thoughts. Don't do it unless you have to is now my advice!
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Oct 11, 2015 12:35:09 GMT
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Andy P
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Posts: 4,982
My main instrument is: Taylor 312ce, Guild D25, Deering 5 string banjo
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Post by Andy P on Oct 11, 2015 12:38:39 GMT
Pleased you've sorted it out. Didn't think of the cable! Thanks Andy. I did take your advice and e-mail John at Orchid yesterday, thinking he wouldn't see it until Monday. He was back like a shot, telling me he had never in his long career experienced an issue like this, assuring me that every unit is fully tested before it goes out and saying he was at a loss as to what the problem might be. I think I spoiled his weekend! I did put him out of misery shortly afterwards though
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Post by jackorion on Oct 11, 2015 15:45:33 GMT
I must admit that I've thought seriously several times about getting some sort of pick up system on my Lowden and every time it's got near to being a reality I've got cold feet and binned the idea. I'm not sure your story has encouraged me to return to those thoughts. Don't do it unless you have to is now my advice! The thing is to put a pickup system in your guitar if you need it, and then choose one you like the tone of irrespective as to how much it captures the 'true' sound of the guitar...
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Post by vikingblues on Oct 11, 2015 21:41:49 GMT
Don't do it unless you have to is now my advice! The thing is to put a pickup system in your guitar if you need it, and then choose one you like the tone of irrespective as to how much it captures the 'true' sound of the guitar... Choosing on the basis of the tone of the system should be good advice, but for some reason I have a problem in accepting a major discrepancy between acoustic sound and pickup system sound - likely some weirdness in my mental processes. I have the same problem with the likes of the Fishman Aura which have models of famous old guitars built into it and which will therefore sound nothing like the guitar they're installed on. Silly attitude for someone who was fine with using guitar modelling gear for electric guitars. Having found an acoustic guitar with a built in system that does produce a reasonably similar sound to the acoustic one I might well just "stick" at that and not "twist" by trying an installation in the hope that it works. I know a K&K Mini can work well in a Lowden because I tried Keiths Lowden S a long time back and it sounded great, BUT my Lowden is different wood on the soundboard, a different body styling, and the K&K pads could be put in slightly different locations and it'll be a different guy installing them, plus my soundboard might have different responsive properties at that approximate location. So it could be very similar or it could be quite different. So yes - don't do it if you don't have to sounds like the plan I'll use. Mark
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Post by jackorion on Oct 12, 2015 6:18:40 GMT
The thing is to put a pickup system in your guitar if you need it, and then choose one you like the tone of irrespective as to how ...Having found an acoustic guitar with a built in system that does produce a reasonably similar sound to the acoustic one ... Which guitar and system are you using?
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 12, 2015 12:17:20 GMT
Whatever pickup system you use, or preamp or amp or PA — the challenge is creating a sound that is nice and acceptable not amplifying the actual tone of your guitar!
It is all a bit artificial and needs practice and experiment to get to the point where you are happy!
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Post by vikingblues on Oct 13, 2015 7:27:49 GMT
It's that word "artificial" Andy ... you're right - I know you are, but encountering that word in the context of something that seems as pure as acoustic guitar sound is just a bit of a big jolt to the sensibilities. Illogical of me I know. but when so much time and trouble and expense is involved in tracking down a guitar that has "that" sound that really grabs you, it's a shame that it's then required to forget all about that and settle for a second best alternative amplified sound. You asked jackorion about the guitar and system I'm using that produces a reasonably similar sound plugged in v acoustic. It's rather humble - not to say cheap! A Tanglewood JPE with a Fishman Sonitone system - into a Fishman Loudbox Mini (cheap again!). When the guitar budget is max £300 and you're looking for a small bodied, short scale guitar, with electrics built in, the choice is very limited. Quite why a guitar at such a low level rrp and a basic pickup system should produce a better match with the two sounds than a much more expensive combination I don't know - chance and luck I suspect. Maybe a cheap and nasty pickup has a better chance of matching a cheap and nasty guitar as there's less quality of sound to emulate. The Fishman Sonitone just has a volume and tone control, and frankly the tone control hardly does anything. It also shows its cheapness by being a system with a battery pouch somewhere inside the guitar - I'm not looking forward to the first attempt at wrestling with a battery change. Look out for a future post looking for advice as I struggle with this! I don't really need a pick up system anyway, so why do it? Maybe like the mountaineer replies, "because it's there". Mark
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