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Post by vikingblues on Oct 4, 2015 9:29:29 GMT
Does an acoustic guitar have to be "loud" to be good? While I know that an acoustic guitar has to be capable of projecting its sound effectively while using normal playing style there seems to be a view that it also needs to be loud? Does it? As a silly old git who likes sweet sounding music at lower volume levels, I get a bit irritated by the number of times I see in the Acoustic magazine reviews some reviewer waxing lyrical about how incredibly loud a guitar is for its size, or how unexpectedly loud it is, as if that is the main yardstick to measure how good the guitar is. I suppose on the plus side it's not as bad as acoustic guitars reviwed in predominantly electric guitar based reviews where the inevitable phrase turns up with depressing regularity - "but the guitar really comes to life when it's plugged in". Is it maybe just that the reviewers are looking at these acoustic guitars in terms of their suitability for unamplified public performance? Or am I missing something about how loud = good in some aesthetic way that is beyond my understanding? That is more than likely! It seems similar in some respects to my having been out of step with the incessant demand for more "power" in the electric guitar world. Where, in the last few years I was playing electric, the normal situation seemed to have become having mandatory high output stock pickups that were really geared up to only highly distorted high volume music. Two of my three surviving bought electrics have had much needed replacement vintage style low output pickups and became much more musical sounding instruments as a result. The whole world seems to have gone mad in needing everything to be bigger, louder, faster, more dramatic ...... Mark
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Post by scorpiodog on Oct 4, 2015 9:50:59 GMT
Interesting point, Mark. I very much agree that loud does not equal good. For me, it's a question of what you want to do.
I think you've already picked up the most salient point, which is that volume is needed for unamplified public performance. But. I can identify at least two more major issues.
The first is dynamics. Any instrument can have its volume reduced by modifying right hand digit pressure. But I feel that all music benefits from dynamic volume. Some bits louder and some bits quieter. This is as important in conveying emotion and narrative as note intervals. A guitar that's capable of loud playing will facilitate this better than a guitar that isn't.
The other issue that affects me is the relative volume between my guitar and my voice. I use a guitar almost totally for vocal accompaniment. I guess the same issue will affect those who play in ensembles, but it would, of course be less important for soloists. I owned a quiet guitar throughout the 70s and into the 80s and it was my only playable instrument. The only answer was to thrash it and this did absolutely nothing to improve my technique.
Your point about treating an acoustic guitar as though it was an electric in reviews is well made, but, again, if your main use of a guitar is to play for an audience in noisy environments, then those comments in that context would be more understandable.
I've never been an electric guitar player (I have owned a few, but they only occasionally appeal to me) so I can't comment on high/low output pickups.
A thought provoking thread this. I'll be interested to hear other opinions.
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Loud?
Oct 4, 2015 10:12:31 GMT
Post by andyhowell on Oct 4, 2015 10:12:31 GMT
My first reactions were to suggest no but I think Paul is right.
Dynamic range is important and you want some power in reserve — when you dig in you want this to shine through.
Sound ports make a big difference though. Guitars with these sound a lot louder to the player although I doubt it makes much difference to the audience.
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Loud?
Oct 4, 2015 11:43:16 GMT
Post by slasher on Oct 4, 2015 11:43:16 GMT
I have two guitars with the potential to be loud, and very loud, but to me high volume is not an end in itself, just and alternative. Same as my hi-fi can be turned up to 10 but rarely is. It is one of the frustrating parts of life that in our hobby the sound we make is better heard by those in front of the guitar and not the one behind it!
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Loud?
Oct 4, 2015 11:52:45 GMT
Post by vikingblues on Oct 4, 2015 11:52:45 GMT
That's a very good point about dynamic range guys! I would agree with both of you that dynamic range is a must have. Which I've been thinking about while playing the Lowden and the TW Java this last half hour. If I apply this thought to the magazine reviews I would expect to see some mentions in reviews also of how quiet a guitar can be effectively played and still have it projecting? I'm not sure I can recall seeing that sort of mention for a long time. By way of clarification an example that popped into my head was a hand built used guitar I tried out last year in Edinburgh - it could play very loud and it sounded great when played IF it was played at least quite aggressively. But if I eased off on it to my normal level of impact in plucking the strings the sound and tone went AWOL and it wasn't projecting very well at all and sounded dull and lifeless. So that guitar was loud BUT it didn't have a bigger dynamic range because of it. The Lowden by comparison isn't so good when driven hard but projects the sound very well indeed at low volumes. So it is not loud but has just as much dynamic range as that other guitar. Because the Lowden suits my style of play better it was the one that gave me as an individual player much more dynamic range. I expect someone with a generally more aggressive style would find the reverse. I also suspect that I am in a minority in the very non aggressive way I play - so that "loud" being a benefit could well make sense for most players. Both of you (as I did in my first post) alluded to public performance aspect, and I'm suspecting that a significant factor in the way reviews are done is that they are writing them with players in mind who do perform publicly. That brings some sort of sense to it too. Also a very good point Paul about the relative balance of voice and guitar. I am sure that as far as singing goes my (thankfully) occasional attempts at this are with a voice that's not exactly big and booming - so I don't need a big guitar sound except maybe to spare people from hearing my croaking - I am a humanitarian at heart. I'm sure the vast majority who sing are much louder with vocals than me so the "loud" benefit aspect makes a lot more sense there. So yes - I was missing some things in my thinking. I'll be less irritated next time I see it in a review. I'll need to find something else to be irritated with now .... I'll avoid the obvious choice of the daily politics show on the TV - too easy! Mark
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Post by vikingblues on Oct 4, 2015 11:58:09 GMT
It is one of the frustrating parts of life that in our hobby the sound we make is better heard by those in front of the guitar and not the one behind it! Absolutely true and it is a source of regret. It's not uncommon to find me sometimes standing in front of a wall to get a hint of what might be if I could just detach my ears and put them in front of the guitar. It does make it a bit more difficult too to judge how well an attempted recording is picking up the real acoustic sound of the guitar. Mark
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Post by earwighoney on Oct 4, 2015 14:31:13 GMT
It seems similar in some respects to my having been out of step with the incessant demand for more "power" in the electric guitar world. Where, in the last few years I was playing electric, the normal situation seemed to have become having mandatory high output stock pickups that were really geared up to only highly distorted high volume music. Two of my three surviving bought electrics have had much needed replacement vintage style low output pickups and became much more musical sounding instruments as a result. The whole world seems to have gone mad in needing everything to be bigger, louder, faster, more dramatic ...... Mark I'm in agreement when it comes to pickups, it can be quite a confusing issue and the issue of 'higher output = better' seems to be in existence for many (definitely in the heavy metal side of things). When it comes to guitar pickups, I have noticed a slight increase in popularity in the reissue of speciality lower output pickups, eg Charlie Christians, Gold Foils, Coodercaster pickups etc. When it comes to stock pickups on electric guitars, I'm never bothered by them as I find changing pickups to be the individual needs (akin to changing strings on a acoustic guitar) Tuners are something else I feel there seems to be a bit of an arms race for with tuner ratios constantly climbing. My last flamenco guitar had 1:14 ratio tuners which were perfect, and the current one has 1:18 ratio tuners which just seems excessive and cumbersome in terms of tuning to the strings to pitch after retuning. I remember reading a quote by a guitar builder 'If you give them volume, they will hear tone', which I'm not sure I agree with but I can see where it is coming from. Sometimes I think in the acoustic guitar side of things there can be an obsession with volume and really lightly built guitars, which I think might have been a reaction against over built, over braced dull sounding guitars; I think I've recalled certain eras of Martins and Gibson (70's and 80's?) which were along those lines. When it comes to 'modern' design acoustics something I am not a fan of at all are the designs to maximise bass, treble and sustain and so on, more of those factors doesn't always equate to a instrument that is more capable (for certain types of music it's not a good thing at all!) The volume issue exists in the classical guitar side of things as well. A lot of people favour lattice braced guitars as championed by a few celebrity guitarists, famously built by an Antipodean luthier. A lot of people despise those type of guitars as they say they have a huge amount of volume but not much else, like a banjo. Maybe that is a sign of things to come in the acoustic guitar or it is already here? Who knows.
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Post by missclarktree on Oct 4, 2015 18:51:52 GMT
Call me old-fashioned, but I've got volume-phobia when it comes to listening to public performances. I'd be surprised if the audience can discern the quality of tone and dynamics, judging by the volume coming from performances that I've almost been to. Just an overwhelming noise that must be damaging to the ears. How can people stand it?
And another thing (should this be in COG section?) where's the sense in a social occasion where the noise is so overpowering that people can't talk to each other? No, I'd much rather listen to your quiet playing, Mark. Anything louder and my ears tend to go on strike.
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Loud?
Oct 4, 2015 21:22:11 GMT
Post by doc on Oct 4, 2015 21:22:11 GMT
A good few months ago we had one of or wee nights with friends and family. They usually end up with a singsong and I'm not short of guitar players in that company. There were 5 of us playing, often together, and I noticed that whenever a particular one of my guitars was being played it could not be heard among the other 4. There was quite a bit of soloing going on during the numbers and that guitar could not be heard during its solos. It is, of course, not a particularly good guitar but my point is that, yes, sometimes you need a bit of volume.
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Loud?
Oct 5, 2015 17:42:49 GMT
Post by creamburmese on Oct 5, 2015 17:42:49 GMT
I would echo the thought for ensemble playing - my classical has a sweet tone and isn't "quiet" but in company with 19 other guitars it doesn't stand out. In fact to be heard I have to really hammer it, which of course is not consistent with good tone OR good technique (but then again our conductor has been known to say "throw your technique out the window! I want the loudest nastiest sound you can make! " So just sometimes I would prefer to have a louder guitar that I didn't have to abuse quite so badly.... however for personal playing or solo (I should be so brave) I would always go for tone and balance vs loudness. I guess the 2 aren't mutually exclusive, but it seems more rare to find both (or perhaps you just have to be prepared to pay a lot more than me!)
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 5, 2015 21:32:11 GMT
Just a quick rant re several guitars playing together - This can be an uncomfortable situation unless all the players have a sensitivity to the overall sound/arrangement. Volume wars are almost inevitable, especially in impromptu jams, if this is not the case. No one needs to be loud, the players just need to be adaptable enough to occupy different sonic spaces and preferably emphasise different parts of the piece. (Which is why it can be a lot easier to be the only guitar player among other instruments.) Different capo positions, different fingerstyles/plectrum styles can help differentiate between the guitars without there being any need for anyone to get louder. Unless each player is listening to what the others are playing (rather than concentrating on making themselves heard) the result will not be very musical and will frustrate all of them. If any player can't hear all the other players then playing more quietly themselves is what is necessary. The more players there are, the less any one of them needs to play, and the quieter they need to be. If any particular player's bit needs to come to the fore for a while, the other players should play more quietly/more simply/not at all. None of this means that an occasional pulling out of all the stops for creative purposes is a bad thing, far from it. But it will have little dramatic effect unless everyone has been moderating their volume the rest of the time. Rant over! Keith
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Loud?
Oct 5, 2015 22:08:59 GMT
Post by vikingblues on Oct 5, 2015 22:08:59 GMT
Good points about the ensemble guitars Keith. Variability in guitars means there will always be someone in a group of guitarists that has a guitar that's potentially louder than the others (or quieter) - so unless that group of players interact sensitively there'll be someone not being heard and someone hogging the limelight - shame when that happens as the interaction between players is a major musical pleasure to be had and it makes the music so much better. I think if I found myself in a guitar ensemble where everyone ignored the other players and just tried to play as loud as possible I'd be offski pretty sharpish. I'm wondering too that sustain can also a very important part of the equation in being heard in ensemble playing. Not much use if the note starts loud enough to be heard but quickly fades as you very quickly stop being heard. I know it's not quite the same thing but I've had electric guitars with hot pickups that sounded fine on their own, but if played along with other instruments they needed to be ridiculously louder when the note first rang out to allow for the fast loss of sustain. A vintage low output pickup with good sustain worked much better and allowed a decent initial volume and still being heard as the notes faded. I'll admit I'm with Alison on the overwhelming noise volume phobia thing! Mark
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Loud?
Oct 6, 2015 13:45:02 GMT
Post by creamburmese on Oct 6, 2015 13:45:02 GMT
My problem (and it is MY problem) is that when we are asked to ramp up the volume in our part in the orchestra, I actually can't hear myself play over the people playing the same part with louder guitars unless I really dig in. And I've discovered that if I can't hear myself, then whatever comes out is apparently random
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Post by Andy P on Oct 6, 2015 15:55:30 GMT
The more players there are, the less any one of them needs to play, and the quieter they need to be. If any particular player's bit needs to come to the fore for a while, the other players should play more quietly/more simply/not at all. The chances of having one insensitive player in an ensemble or pub session or whatever comprising in excess of three guitars are, in my experience, high. It only takes one (and there are plenty!). I really don't like multi-guitar sessions, any more than I want to see those solo-and-ego-fests involving multiple iconic electric guitarists lined up on a stage all trying to out-do each other.
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Post by nkforster on Oct 27, 2015 16:26:41 GMT
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