Andy P
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My main instrument is: Taylor 312ce, Guild D25, Deering 5 string banjo
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Post by Andy P on Apr 8, 2016 11:56:03 GMT
Right, many thanks to you all for your time and contributions. The bottom line is clearly how well a system is going to perform depends to a large extent on the guitar and to a lesser extent on playing style and people's perceptions and preferences. As I've said I'm not that impressed with the K&K in my S25 but I think the L.R. Baggs Element Active VTC in my Breedlove does a wonderful job. Those guitars are very different animals though. The problem is of course that once it's fitted it can't be unfitted without a lot of expense. Maybe the answer is to ask Lowden, but I have a feeling I can anticipate their answer I'll also ask the dealers.
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Post by andyhowell on Apr 8, 2016 13:50:44 GMT
Lowden more than one system. Of guitar techs and luthiersI know there are only two who recommend Highlander (mind you on of those is Highlander)
Most luthiers and repair people I talk to prefer (in no order) Fishman Rare Earth and Rare Earth blend (expensive), K&K and Headway. Bagsgs have those fans but I'm always surprised at how many don't like them!
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Andy P
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,982
My main instrument is: Taylor 312ce, Guild D25, Deering 5 string banjo
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Post by Andy P on Apr 8, 2016 19:06:01 GMT
Lowden more than one system. Of guitar techs and luthiersI know there are only two who recommend Highlander (mind you on of those is Highlander) Most luthiers and repair people I talk to prefer (in no order) Fishman Rare Earth and Rare Earth blend (expensive), K&K and Headway. Bagsgs have those fans but I'm always surprised at how many don't like them! Thanks Andy. As a matter of interest I just had a look at what Richard Thompson uses in his Lowden: Sunrise magnetic soundhole pickup plus a Countryman Isomax condenser mic. That would set one back £500 + fitting
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Post by andyhowell on Apr 8, 2016 21:23:40 GMT
Lowden more than one system. Of guitar techs and luthiersI know there are only two who recommend Highlander (mind you on of those is Highlander) Most luthiers and repair people I talk to prefer (in no order) Fishman Rare Earth and Rare Earth blend (expensive), K&K and Headway. Bagsgs have those fans but I'm always surprised at how many don't like them! Thanks Andy. As a matter of interest I just had a look at what Richard Thompson uses in his Lowden: Sunrise magnetic soundhole pickup plus a Countryman Isomax condenser mic. That would set one back £500 + fitting Yep! The Rare Earth blend is good but at a similar price. I've Sone more to add but will leave that to tomorrow!
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Apr 8, 2016 22:11:58 GMT
Thanks Andy. As a matter of interest I just had a look at what Richard Thompson uses in his Lowden: Sunrise magnetic soundhole pickup plus a Countryman Isomax condenser mic. That would set one back £500 + fitting Yep! The Rare Earth blend is good but at a similar price. Not really... www.gak.co.uk/en/fishman-rare-earth-blend-pickup/2527?gclid=CPHb5dyGgMwCFUefGwodJCML8gI've used a Rare Earth Blend and liked it, but it doesn't have a very high output so it'd be best to factor in the cost of an outboard preamp too. Still less than the RT rig though.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Apr 8, 2016 23:12:15 GMT
I think that, despite being a huge fan of the chap, RT's live acoustic sound is pretty dire actually, and not particularly acoustic sounding at all. I've heard him playing live at various stages in his career, and although his more recent Lowden signature model sounds better plugged in live than his old faithful Lowden, it still falls a long way short of decent acoustic plugged in tone. But I'll forgive him - the performance usually soon stops me agonising over tonal minutiae. Maybe we should devote as much time to improving our performances as we tend to spend agonising over gear.... Keith
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Apr 8, 2016 23:26:41 GMT
Chris Smither is one of my absolute favourite singers/songwriters/guitarists, but his amplified tone is fairly horrible. I've read that he takes the view that most audience members are interested in the song, the performance and the overall shared experience, and that only guitar nerds care about stuff like whether the guitar sounds good. Well sorry Chris, I think you're a genius but your amplified tone is...
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Post by scripsit on Apr 9, 2016 0:34:26 GMT
I'll add to the confusion. My favourite Martin Simpson album is 'Bootleg USA', which is taken from several live concerts. I know it's from the end of the nineties, when technology didn't offer so many choices, but there is noticeable 'quack' on some pieces. The quality of the playing more than makes up for it. You can notice the quack, again, years later in his 'Museum of Making Music' concert videos (on YouTube). But, with astonishing pieces like 'She slips away', it doesn't really matter. I think he was using the Highlander right through. Having said that, I've played only two guitars with K&K installed (in a local music shop), and wasn't impressed. It was hard to get any 'middle', so not at all a fat sound. The Fishman system installed on the cheapish Martin dread I bought as my first 'good' acoustic (horrible barn door installation of the 'prefix premium blend', I think) seemed OK through a variety of amps, so I took a stab and put a Fishman Ellipse Matrix Blend (undersaddle and microphone with volume/blend controls in the soundhole) in my first Spira, a 0000. This was good through my little Roland acoustic amp, so I did the same in my next Spira, the 000. With both guitars plugged in, for swapping quickly to different tunings, there was too much EQ fiddling necessary on the amp, so I moved to a Radial Tonebone Pre-Z pre as a preamp. A great improvement, and the tones were much more 'stable' once set up, even in different rooms. Recently I've upgraded the amp to one of these hkaudio.com/products.php?id=376 and think that I've just about got there. No quack, and what appears to be authentic sound (ie the guitars still sound different from each other), and very easy to get the volume right for different spaces. I'm going to install the same pickup system in another guitar I'm having built for me at the moment. At the end of this process, which took several years, I began to wonder what I would have done if I had plugged the K&K equipped guitars into a decent preamp and a proper acoustic amp or PA. I suspect that most 'proper' systems will work if you are prepared to experiment with the whole signal chain. It's a bummer that once the pickup system is in, you more or less have to work with that as a given. Kym
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andrewjw
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Post by andrewjw on Apr 9, 2016 8:51:15 GMT
I'll add to the confusion. Having said that, I've played only two guitars with K&K installed (in a local music shop), and wasn't impressed. It was hard to get any 'middle', so not at all a fat sound. The Fishman system installed on the cheapish Martin dread I bought as my first 'good' acoustic (horrible barn door installation of the 'prefix premium blend', I think) seemed OK through a variety of amps, so I took a stab and put a Fishman Ellipse Matrix Blend (undersaddle and microphone with volume/blend controls in the soundhole) in my first Spira, a 0000. This was good through my little Roland acoustic amp, so I did the same in my next Spira, the 000. With both guitars plugged in, for swapping quickly to different tunings, there was too much EQ fiddling necessary on the amp, so I moved to a Radial Tonebone Pre-Z pre as a preamp. A great improvement, and the tones were much more 'stable' once set up, even in different rooms. Recently I've upgraded the amp to one of these hkaudio.com/products.php?id=376 and think that I've just about got there. No quack, and what appears to be authentic sound (ie the guitars still sound different from each other), and very easy to get the volume right for different spaces. I'm going to install the same pickup system in another guitar I'm having built for me at the moment. At the end of this process, which took several years, I began to wonder what I would have done if I had plugged the K&K equipped guitars into a decent preamp and a proper acoustic amp or PA. I suspect that most 'proper' systems will work if you are prepared to experiment with the whole signal chain. It's a bummer that once the pickup system is in, you more or less have to work with that as a given. Kym An interesting thread.. Seems to be that most people think that it is the pick up /preamp combination that is important rather than just the pu itself. I'll second Kym's choice of the Fishman Ellipse Blend [UST plus mic] and Tonebone PZ preamp combination. I've been using this for several years now on my Manson Heron and sounds great to my ears. Andy Andy P if you fancy a trip across to Plymouth sometime for a listen you'd be very welcome...as Kym suggests above it would be interesting to see if we could get the K and K on your Lowden sounding better using my Tonebone preamp etc
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Apr 9, 2016 9:31:26 GMT
....... Andy Andy P if you fancy a trip across to Plymouth sometime for a listen you'd be very welcome...as Kym suggests above it would be interesting to see if we could get the K and K on your Lowden sounding better using my Tonebone preamp etc Excellent offer - I suspect Andy's S25 would sound very good through your stuff Andrew - it sounded fine through my AER combo, + or - Orchid preamp. It was only a v brief test though - would have been nice to have had more time to experiment. Keith
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Post by nkforster on Apr 9, 2016 11:55:13 GMT
A lot of coaxial pickups (highlander, headway and alike) are all made with similar stuff - its the trigger cable used for traffic lights. So many of these pickups sound similar - quacky. The difference between them is usually down to either coatings (often rubber) and the preamp. DTar make the wavelength pickup which is the same coaxial cable, but the preamp is 18V. This makes it less quacky than most, but there is still some. Whilst Highlander have been used by a lot of big names over the years, the sound they make is now, and always, has been bloody awful in my most humble of opinions. But they work, they and are reliable. In the 90s, they were the best of a bad lot so it's not too surprising they were popular. The K&K can sound decent if you fit it right, and it's easy to fit them badly. Combine with a DI box rather than a preamp. Not expensive either. The best stage sound I heard was the RMC but they do rob the acoustic sound of bass. Very expensive and very hard to fit. They all sound pretty awful compared to a mic, so often it's a case of forgetting what you would like the sound to be like, and settling for an amplified sound you find ok. Then balance that with a pickup fitting that damages the acoustic sound the least. I found all undersaddle pickups to be detrimental acoustically to some degree. Those with coatings being the worst offenders. It seems a shame to spend a lot on a good guitar then make it sound worse so you can amplify it. Soundhole magnetic pickups are often overlooked because they aren't "natural." But neither are any piezo based pickups. There are loads of ok soundhole pickups. I like the 70's DeArmond 260. They come up on ebay from time to time. Not expensive either. The B string is a little loud but the amplified sound is pleasant. At least they aren't "quacky." Another option are the Fishman Aura range - there the quacky signal is mixed with a digitally sampled sound. Again, not perfect, but slightly less unpleasant than a standard undersaddle Fishman. Handy if you have one of the guitars they have sampled like a Martin or a Gibson. They do a floor pedal version of the Aura these days I think. I've said it before, but I enjoy repeating myself - forget about getting a "natural" sound and try to go for an amplified sound that is acceptable and avoid pickups that damage the acoustic sound. nigel www.nkforsterguitars.com
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andrewjw
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Post by andrewjw on Apr 9, 2016 12:45:15 GMT
Can somebody define and give examples of "quacky"... Often quoted but seldom defined... I tried an Aura preamp/ pedal [quoted above] when they first came out in my [long and expensive] quest for the perfect amplified acoustic sound... Soon sold on E Bay... But then maybe in another signal chain it would have been perfect...
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Apr 9, 2016 13:05:44 GMT
nkforster - Great post Nigel. Searching for an acceptable rather then an authentic acoustic sound may seem like heresy to some, but it's a wise approach if you want to avoid a lot of expense and frustration. I'd be interested to know whether, in your view, having a soundhole pickup fitted interferes with the acoustic sound? A well known guitar builder/repairer in my neck of the woods believes that they compromise the vibration of the top.
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Apr 9, 2016 13:09:00 GMT
Can somebody define and give examples of "quacky"... Often quoted but seldom defined... I tried an Aura preamp/ pedal [quoted above] when they first came out in my [long and expensive] quest for the perfect amplified acoustic sound... Soon sold on E Bay... But then maybe in another signal chain it would have been perfect... Quacky is the term everyone uses, but I tend to think of the sound as "plastic-y" (if there isn't such a word I've just invented it). The Chris Smither video being a prime example.
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Post by scripsit on Apr 9, 2016 13:12:54 GMT
Can somebody define and give examples of "quacky"... Try: right near the end, about 4.46. This is an extreme example, but it has become almost the default acoustic guitar sound for some country records. Kym
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