leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 24,667
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
|
Post by leoroberts on Sept 26, 2016 6:17:12 GMT
|
|
brianr2
C.O.G.
Posts: 3,072
My main instrument is: Fylde Goodfellow
Member is Online
|
Post by brianr2 on Sept 26, 2016 10:27:59 GMT
Ryan Air have a much better way of drying out instruments: see HERE. Brian
|
|
|
Post by andyhowell on Sept 26, 2016 10:40:58 GMT
I'm not sure whether it is mumbo jumbo or not. There's bound to be something in it but I'm suspicious — this is almost certainly more to do with marketing than anything else.
What needs stressing is the pure joy of playing an instrument as it opens up and develops its sound. This is one of the great things about a new, guitar, guitar. The wow experience goes on and on!
When I first bought home my Lucas I must have played it for 6 hours. I swear I could hear the sound develop during that time. Over a couple of years it has really developed. It was nice to hear Ged saying that he thought that guitar had really developed over the last year.
So, playing in is not a nuisance but one of the great things about a new guitar.
In my opinion ;-)
|
|
Riverman
Artist / Performer
Posts: 7,348
|
Post by Riverman on Sept 26, 2016 10:49:54 GMT
I'm not sure whether it is mumbo jumbo or not. There's bound to be something in it but I'm suspicious — this is almost certainly more to do with marketing than anything else. What needs stressing is the pure joy of playing an instrument as it opens up and develops its sound. This is one of the great things about a new, guitar, guitar. The wow experience goes on and on! When I first bought home my Lucas I must have played it for 6 hours. I swear I could hear the sound develop during that time. Over a couple of years it has really developed. It was nice to hear Ged saying that he thought that guitar had really developed over the last year. So, playing in is not a nuisance but one of the great things about a new guitar. In my opinion ;-) Yeah Andy, but some of us don't have 80 years left on the planet to play them in properly I've played a lot of old guitars. Some were dogs. Some were exquisite, and I'm convinced that I could hear the effect of the aging of the wood. The science of torrefication seems to make sense, but like all innovations it'll no doubt be pounced upon by the marketing folk, hoping to persuade us to upgrade from our "ordinary" guitars. There are enough heavyweight luthiers in the States taking torrefication seriously to make me think there's something in it. Dana Bourgeois, as a relatively small scale builder, isn't going to become rich on the back of something that's just a new gimmick. It would have been interesting to have asked our Loofah panel about this on Saturday. Damn! Can we just do the whole weekend again?
|
|
|
Post by andyhowell on Sept 26, 2016 10:59:23 GMT
Yeah Andy, but some of us don't have 80 years left on the planet to play them in properly Ah, come on. There'a always time. You only need a few months. If you decided to make a new purchase that is :-) SaveSave
|
|
Riverman
Artist / Performer
Posts: 7,348
|
Post by Riverman on Sept 26, 2016 11:09:49 GMT
Yeah Andy, but some of us don't have 80 years left on the planet to play them in properly Ah, come on. There'a always time. You only need a few months. If you decided to make a new purchase that is :-) SaveSaveI don't know what you're talking about...
|
|
leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 24,667
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
|
Post by leoroberts on Sept 26, 2016 12:23:02 GMT
Ah, come on. There'a always time. You only need a few months. If you decided to make a new purchase that is :-) SaveSaveI don't know what you're talking about... Oooh! Intrigue!
|
|
leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 24,667
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
|
Post by leoroberts on Sept 26, 2016 12:25:43 GMT
It would have been interesting to have asked our Loofah panel about this on Saturday. Damn! Can we just do the whole weekend again? Maybe davewhite, ajlucas, francis, RosieTGC (and R the F and nkforster) would like to give their thoughts anyway
|
|
Riverman
Artist / Performer
Posts: 7,348
|
Post by Riverman on Sept 26, 2016 12:37:39 GMT
I don't know what you're talking about... Oooh! Intrigue! Calm down leoroberts! It's just andyhowell trying to persuade me to buy a new guitar. I'm all in favour of course, but my financial controller has been away for the weekend herself - she's due home in about 20 minutes and, like our political leaders, I doubt if I'll have the nerve to trigger immediately the equivalent of Article 50, to commence what would no doubt be prolonged and difficult negotiations. Getting back to the original thread topic I could argue that the longer any new acquisition is delayed, the less (life)time there would be left to play it in, I suppose...I'm sure she'd listen positively to such a suggestion...
|
|
|
Post by RosieTGC on Sept 26, 2016 12:40:11 GMT
I haven't trialed it myself (my home oven isn't big enough and more built for roasting animals) but I saw this video by Alistair Atkin a little while ago that talks it through it a little. more.
|
|
davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Luthier
Aemulor et ambitiosior
Posts: 3,546
|
Post by davewhite on Sept 26, 2016 12:49:32 GMT
It would have been interesting to have asked our Loofah panel about this on Saturday. Damn! Can we just do the whole weekend again? Maybe davewhite, ajlucas, francis, RosieTGC (and R the F and nkforster) would like to give their thoughts anyway Well Leo - maybe you'd like to get your oven warmed up, pop "Sandy" in there for a while and report back the results As I've never seen or built with one I can't offer an opinion. Some builders I know who's views I respect think they are a good thing but there's also a lot of "marketing bollox" going on with torrified tops - lots of mass manufactured acoustics are now using them with "torrefied tops" being the marketing focus. I'm eagerly awaiting the review comparison of the £500 Recording King guitar versus a venerated pre-war Martin. For me one thing is for certain - as with most things concerning acoustic guitars you won't get a proper scientific analysis of the effects one way or the other. People will hear what they want or expect to hear I'm sure. I'm also interested to know what the effects are one, five, ten years down the line in terms of the wood's stability and acoustic properties. I'm always amazed that people know what pre-war guitars sounded like when new - they must have portraits of themselves hidden away in the attic or are referring to different wars. I wouldn't describe Dana Bourgeois as "a relatively small scale builder" - Bourgeois guitars produce an awful lot of guitars each year. Will I be rushing out to buy torrefied tops ? I don't think so.
|
|
francis
C.O.G.
Posts: 2,406
My main instrument is: Whatever I'm building...
|
Post by francis on Sept 26, 2016 13:38:20 GMT
It would have been interesting to have asked our Loofah panel about this on Saturday. Damn! Can we just do the whole weekend again? Maybe davewhite , ajlucas , francis , RosieTGC (and R the F and nkforster ) would like to give their thoughts anyway As for doing the whole weekend again - yes please and hats off to Martin and Co for their efforts Baking tops - haven't a clue! I haven't read anything to say they're better than sliced bread and I tend to read rave reviews with very long arms... Is the jury out on this - doubt it as the evidence is pretty poor atm
|
|
Riverman
Artist / Performer
Posts: 7,348
|
Post by Riverman on Sept 26, 2016 15:57:13 GMT
I wouldn't describe Dana Bourgeois as "a relatively small scale builder" - Bourgeois guitars produce an awful lot of guitars each year. Under 400 according to their website Dave, which is certainly small scale relative to Martin and Taylor who are both now churning out over 100,000 guitars a year. But massive compared to a sole luthier, obviously. My point was that Dana Bourgeois promoting torrefication solely for marketing purposes seems unlikely. A company like Taylor, however, who put as much effort into marketing, PR and customer service as they do into building guitars, will undoubtedly be looking to maximise the sales potential. That's not a dig at Taylor by the way, they make some excellent guitars and I'm sure the actual designers and builders are genuine in wanting to innovate and continuously improve their instruments; but clever marketing plays a very large part in their success. I think I've seen some of the big far eastern manufacturers catching on to torrefication now. I think that's definitely pinch of salt territory, given all the other factors that make the lack of consistency in budget instruments such an issue. Pointless having a torrefied top on a guitar with a poor neck set and dodgy frets.
|
|
|
Post by vikingblues on Sept 26, 2016 17:49:56 GMT
Well ... call me an old cynic, but my thoughts when I first heard about torrefication were along these lines:- For wood to properly air dry, a long period of time in storage is needed. There is a big cost in this to the maker - the cost of the wood itself and the length of time that cost is tied up with no return on investment. There is also costs of the storage itself and all the overheads that go with this. Or if the wood is not stored by the guitar maker those extra costs will be passed on by the person that does the storage. There is such a huge supply of acoustic guitars in the marketplace these days that the remarkably low selling prices compared to the past in real terms leave tight margins ans a need to minimise costs for the business to survive. So ..... voila, and as if by magic ..... a process which speeds up the time is takes to mature the wood and which gives a huge cut in capital invested in stock. Result - an improvement in margins and a more profitable business. Which is, lets face it, what most guitar building operations are ... a business. If they happen to make us consumers happy in the process that's just a fortunate coincidence. Maybe it's not a long way removed from the practices in place that speed up the maturation of cheese artificially, although to be fair the cheese makers don't seem to be trying to pass that process off as improving the product. Mention of cheese puts me in mind of another guitar building aspect that has my BS-ometer bleeping loudly. With electric guitars, as it has become more difficult to source low density high quality wood for solid body guitars, suddenly Gibson find that turning the body into a swiss cheese is a great benefit to tone. Nothing at all to do with keeping the costs down of course!!! The other thing I wonder about regarding the torrefication .... if it does bring the new guitar more in line with a decades old non-torrefied guitar, is the torrefied one going to eventually die sooner in the future, or is it magically preserved in it's current state for ever? How can the long term effect be known at all? It does seem that every new process or change in build technique comes with a claim that it changes a guitar's tone for the better and invariably to the tone of a vintage guitar. Mark
|
|
|
Post by earthbalm on Sept 26, 2016 18:10:07 GMT
vikingblues I love the idea of a BS-ometer. I've also finally realised (thick as I am) what the forum's references to loofahs mean. DOH!
|
|