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Post by fatfingerjohn on Oct 29, 2016 6:43:26 GMT
Hi,
Thought this was an interesting video, not least because of the examples of this design at Halifax; (and the video implies a little to me as if Lowden pioneered this....)
Whilst it explains simply the reason why he thinks it may produce both a better bass and treble, it doesn't really comment on the 'is it easier to play' question (he raises this but doesn't answer it really; the reason being possibly because it might be for some, might not for others??).
It would be interesting to hear from forum owners of such a design guitar what their view is on playability (and sound quality), and of course from our luthiers.
Like many 'design' questions, if it really is a better sound and is no more difficult to play (or even easier??) then the question which George L asks in the video 'why aren't they all made like this) is interesting. Is it much more expensive/difficult to produce than more standard parallel frets?
FFJ
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Post by vikingblues on Oct 30, 2016 7:15:22 GMT
Given the general inclination of guitarists to treat anything very different with deep suspicion I could imagine something that is better not being accepted by enough players to make it commercially worthwhile to produce big numbers. It does sort of look like it's a guitar designed by Picasso and gives me a vaguely queasy feeling of having had too much to drink.
I had a feeling when Goerge Lowden said "when I decided to design this" he was talking in terms of the overall guitar and how it would work best incorporating a fan fret, rather than claiming he'd invented the idea. But imprecision of language allied to a very short video requiring less than full description of thoughts and processes, makes it difficult to tell for sure.
If my impression of what I've seen of fanfret guitars so far is accurate, then they seem to come at a price premium. Which will also inhibit any rise in popularity and acceptance. But if a few high profile players start using them then we'll maybe watch the popularity rocket.
Mark
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Post by Trevor TAMCO on Oct 30, 2016 7:58:18 GMT
Fan frets have been around for centuries. I've shown a fan fret guitar to many customers without telling them, none have noticed while playing until I point it out.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 30, 2016 9:38:20 GMT
The Lowden fan fret has quite a large difference in scale between the bass and treble - I find this not partic easy to play at the lower end of the neck, and a thumbover F shape is really difficult.
Less drastic scale differentials (and also putting the orthagonal fret in a good place) can reduce this difficulty for me, as it can put the 1st fret at a "nearer to normal" angle , bringing the bass side of it within easier thumb reach, and making the fretting "transparent" to play.
Keith
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 30, 2016 12:16:01 GMT
The Fan Fret idea has been around since the Renaissance.
The Fan Fret will always come with a premium price. The length of the strings and angle of the fan changes on personal preference. The internal bracing used on one is different to a standard guitar and even the bridge has to be different as well! The Lowden version is standardised of course but because of these other issues is quite pricey.
I've bene thinking about a You Tube video to discuss my guitar and the path to commissioning it — which will deal with the fan issue. It was only after commissioned mine that I realised the debate about the angle and strong length can go on forever!
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Oct 30, 2016 13:03:33 GMT
I can see that for larger manufacturers the smaller supply would make it likely that these would be more expensive. Is the same true when you have a commissioned guitar from a small luthier? i.e. is the making process longer/more costly or as a once-off is it not so relevant?
FFJ
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Oct 30, 2016 14:52:17 GMT
Here's my take on multi-scale instruments for what it's worth as I've only made sixteen of them I agree that the trebles sound more interesting to me ("sweeter", "bell like") with a slightly shorter scale length than normal. At the bass end if you are going to tune down from E and want to maintain string balance and intonation then you either have to increase the string gauge or increase the scale length or a combination of both. In particular if you are going to tune down a long way (eg baritone guitars, 7 or 8 string guitars or harp guitars with sub bass strings) you will run out of string gauge and have to increase the scale length quite a lot - this principle was use in the making arch-lutes and orpharions in the 1500's and 1600's with "fan frets". It doesn't really make a lot of sense to increase the scale length of all of the other strings on the instrument to this length as it takes away the "treble sweetness" and makes playability of the instrument harder. This is where multi-scale comes into its own. It doesn't give better intonation - with the correct string gauge and string compensation at the saddle/nut you get correct intonation with constant scale. What I do think it brings for the player is string "balance" and feel - by that I mean you can keep string gauges similar to those you would use on a "normal" constant scale length guitar for the lower tunings. The feel of the strings is an important variable for players. I agree with Keith that the difference in scale lengths and where the "orthogonal fret" is positioned will make a big difference to player feel. I prefer more slant at the nut as it fits my fretting hand position better which means I keep the "orthogonal fret" higher up the fret board. Keith's playing style would need the "orthogonal fret" closer to the nut. I've made instruments with the scale lengths 29mm different but prefer smaller differences of around 12-15mm. As for George's extra "bass" on the guitar he talks about - from my experience a lot of that is coming from the old Cuban Mahogany he used (a mahogany that thinks it's a rosewood) and the body size and depth of the instrument. I'm also surprised that he gets away with using the term "fan fret" - although Ralph Novak's patent has expired I though he had the commercial copyright to the term "fan fret" still. This is why luthiers tend to use the term "multi-scale".
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