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Post by vikingblues on Jan 30, 2017 23:25:29 GMT
I have found myself mentioning modes a lot in recent posts and it occurred to me that I have not tried to apply modes to playing in DADGAD, or indeed any altered tuning. It also occurred to me that it was way past time for a bit of serious improv playing. It is for me the most enjoyable of any type of guitar playing .... when it works! It would be nice if I could manage to encourage people to give it a go. My track record in that is very poor to date though! Unlike electric guitar where I used to improvise over backing tracks in various modes, on acoustic it's just me on the one guitar played solo, so it's much more of a challenge. A good backing track makes improv so much easier as a lot of the time it is guiding you towards the best notes and runs to play. Step 1 was to map some notes in DADGAD tuning. I intend to concentrate just now on minor key (my preferred option as it's suits by moods). The starting point was to map the minor pentatonic notes and it was immediately apparent how well the notes in that scale fall under the fingers in easily memorised patterns in DADGAD. Step 2 was to have separate mappings for each of the minor modes of Phrygian, Aeolian, and Dorian. Plus a blues scale thrown in, though real blues uses many more notes than that and nothing is off limit. To make life as easy as possible I mapped it all for the key of D! I noted stuff about triads but will look at them later - maybe. See the 'notes of the notes' below:- The dark circles are the Pentatonic Minor. The hollow circles the additional two notes for each scale. Diamond shape for the blues note. I recall being amazed on the blues forum I used to haunt that such seriously great players as some of those members would run away at speed if confronted by the thought of playing a mode. But if you know the pentatonic all you need to remember in addition for a minor mode is ... two notes. In technical terms the Minor Pentatonic is Root, b3, 4, 5, b7, Octave The minor 3rd (b3) is what shows the scale is minor. Dorian - add two notes .... 2 and 6 - neither minor. Aeolian - add two notes .... 2 and b6 - one minor. Phrygian - add two notes .... B2 and b6 - both minor. I thought I'd start with Phrygian as that is my favourite minor mode. I suspect the reason may be that it's the most minor of the minor modes with both added noted being minor. The note of Eb in D Phrygian is particuarly effective in bringing out the definitive character and feel of the mode. So here's my attempt at the improv - the second half has a few more risks being taken and there are, as always with improvs a few "wrong" notes and some fumbling and missing! But it was great fun and I'm happy with the way it turned out for a first attempt in this tuning. Improv in DADGD - Phrygian ModeSorry about the poor pun in the title of the piece, but it was sort of appropriate as we were towards the end of 24 hours in the house with no gas supply and no heating (and 3 below freezing outside). So it was a tad fridge like when recording! I will have to try to move along with this and do something with the other two modes, but it will be harder, particularly with Dorian, a mode I have always found troublesome in it not really suiting my ideas for what to play, and I find it very hard to find its character. Very, very busy work-wise too at present which may slow progress. I hope this is of some interest to someone. Mark
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Post by andyhowell on Jan 31, 2017 13:23:25 GMT
Wow, that is very dark !
I can see what you are doing and can see you're discovering the DADGAD variation thing. For some reason, in this tuning, I find myself creating lots of variants on the main theme _ far more than i other tunings.
What does that sound like with the Capo on 2?
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Akquarius
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Post by Akquarius on Jan 31, 2017 20:36:33 GMT
Posts like these make me realize again and again what a music theory dyslexic I am ....
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Post by scorpiodog on Feb 1, 2017 11:15:04 GMT
I really enjoyed this improv, Mark. Two things I fail at dismally are improv and using alt tunings, so double respect to you, young man.
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Post by vikingblues on Feb 1, 2017 20:00:26 GMT
Rats!!!!!! Just about to post a reply, and the browser crashed! I restored the page but of course my post was gone. Try again! ************* Anyway - yes, 'very dark' Andy, I'll agree. Partly the mode, partly the guitar (Tanglewood all Mahogany TW1300), partly the Thomastik-Infeld strings, partly (quite possibly mostly) me. I like dark! A capo on 2 doesn't change things too much in this scenario. Obviously I can't play the same piece, as the improv is done and gone, but in a similar but shorter vein and trying to cover similar ground and notes, here's the sound of it all with Capo at 2. 'A Capo and a Phrygian DADGAD'Those two semitone steps to Eb and to Bb are key to the Phrygian sound, and I feel myself drawn to patterns using them. ************* I'll admit that I'm usually hopeless when it comes to musical theory Bernd. Until I saw this method by David Wallimann that based the teaching around adding notes to the pentatonic scale and visualising fretboard patterns I was totally baffled by modes. Even JustinGuitar who usually makes things fairly easy to understand teaches modes in a series of lessons that runs to more than 10,000 words and runs to 34 page if copied into Word! The handwritten fretboard diagrams in my opening post cover all the theory I use on minor modes, and a similar amount of detail covers major modes. Just 2 sides of A4 paper! I guess a lot of getting something from my method is trying it out and listening to hear what works best and what brings out the character of the mode well. Practical theory! ************* Thanks for your kind words about the improv Paul! There is a real pleasure for me in improvising - when I used to improv over backing tracks on the dark side of electric guitar I used to say it was something that kept me sane. I wasn't exaggerating - there's something I find very cleansing for the mind in a good improvisation. It seems to wash away worries and problems, at least for a short time. Mark According to Guitar World 'the Phrygian mode is often referred to as the “third mode” because—starting from the major scale, which is the “mother,” or “parent,” scale to the seven fundamental modes and is itself considered the first mode—Phrygian is the third mode in the series, as it is based upon the third scale degree of the major scale.' DO WHAT???!!! Quite frankly I can make no sense of that at all! That came from this article here.I just tried reading it and despite the fact I can play in the Phrygian mode I failed to connect with the teaching at all really. Th normal story for me.
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Feb 2, 2017 11:40:46 GMT
Rats!!!!!! Just about to post a reply, and the browser crashed! I restored the page but of course my post was gone. Try again! ************* Anyway - yes, 'very dark' Andy, I'll agree. Partly the mode, partly the guitar (Tanglewood all Mahogany TW1300), partly the Thomastik-Infeld strings, partly (quite possibly mostly) me. I like dark! A capo on 2 doesn't change things too much in this scenario. Obviously I can't play the same piece, as the improv is done and gone, but in a similar but shorter vein and trying to cover similar ground and notes, here's the sound of it all with Capo at 2. 'A Capo and a Phrygian DADGAD'Those two semitone steps to Eb and to Bb are key to the Phrygian sound, and I feel myself drawn to patterns using them. ************* I'll admit that I'm usually hopeless when it comes to musical theory Bernd. Until I saw this method by David Wallimann that based the teaching around adding notes to the pentatonic scale and visualising fretboard patterns I was totally baffled by modes. Even JustinGuitar who usually makes things fairly easy to understand teaches modes in a series of lessons that runs to more than 10,000 words and runs to 34 page if copied into Word! The handwritten fretboard diagrams in my opening post cover all the theory I use on minor modes, and a similar amount of detail covers major modes. Just 2 sides of A4 paper! I guess a lot of getting something from my method is trying it out and listening to hear what works best and what brings out the character of the mode well. Practical theory! ************* Thanks for your kind words about the improv Paul! There is a real pleasure for me in improvising - when I used to improv over backing tracks on the dark side of electric guitar I used to say it was something that kept me sane. I wasn't exaggerating - there's something I find very cleansing for the mind in a good improvisation. It seems to wash away worries and problems, at least for a short time. Mark According to Guitar World 'the Phrygian mode is often referred to as the “third mode” because—starting from the major scale, which is the “mother,” or “parent,” scale to the seven fundamental modes and is itself considered the first mode—Phrygian is the third mode in the series, as it is based upon the third scale degree of the major scale.' DO WHAT???!!! Quite frankly I can make no sense of that at all!That came from this article here.I just tried reading it and despite the fact I can play in the Phrygian mode I failed to connect with the teaching at all really. Th normal story for me. Oddly enough, that's the only part of this thread that I really understand. The rest might as well be in Serbo-Croat for all I can get it into my thick head (sorry Mark!) Funny isn't it, how we guitarists take to theory (or don't). I was talking to a friend last night, who I was sure knew at least as much as me about the subject. He asked me how I came up with what he described as my "unusual" chord progressions. Turned out he had no idea what I was talking about when I tried to explain the theory behind some of them.
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Post by vikingblues on Feb 2, 2017 18:47:11 GMT
Interesting what you say Richard - it's not anything to do with your having a thick head in my reckoning. It's all about finding a method of learning that clicks with the way your brain is wired up. My brain is not wired up right at all for learning guitar by reading words, and trying to fathom the logic or basis for why something might work. However it does seem to be wired up to see shapes and patterns. What you said about "thick head" syndrome applies to me with that Guitar World approach. Unfortunately, for me, 95%+ of teaching modes is done like they do it. Oddly enough ' Le mode phrygien est souvent appelé le «troisième mode» parce que - à partir de l'échelle majeure, qui est la «mère», ou «parent», l'échelle pour les sept modes fondamentaux et est elle-même considéré comme le premier mode-phrygien est le Troisième mode de la série, car il est basé sur le troisième degré d'échelle de la grande échelle' makes just as much sense as the English language version! I can honestly say I did have a few goes in getting to grips with this subject and it was like trying to learn quantum theory. Your view of my adopted method being gibberish is by far and away the majority view of those I've shown it to!!! Mark
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Feb 2, 2017 20:51:16 GMT
Not gibberish Mark, just a bit intimidating!
I'm sure you're right about different people's brains being wired differently. I'm very much one for shapes and patterns too - but although I know the shape of a major scale on the guitar, my brain can't cope with playing the same notes starting at the second, third etc steps of the scale. I think it's because my fingers "get" the shape, but my brain hasn't processed a full understanding of it.
For me, learning a bunch of shapes without understanding the underlying principles would be frustrating and, I think, ultimately limiting. But then, I'm not focusing on improvisation like you are, and I can see it might work well for that.
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Post by vikingblues on Feb 3, 2017 8:59:28 GMT
Not gibberish Mark, just a bit intimidating! I'm sure you're right about different people's brains being wired differently. I'm very much one for shapes and patterns too - but although I know the shape of a major scale on the guitar, my brain can't cope with playing the same notes starting at the second, third etc steps of the scale. I think it's because my fingers "get" the shape, but my brain hasn't processed a full understanding of it. For me, learning a bunch of shapes without understanding the underlying principles would be frustrating and, I think, ultimately limiting. But then, I'm not focusing on improvisation like you are, and I can see it might work well for that. I guess I have the advantage of not wanting to learn modes from the point of view of building modal chords and structuring musical compositions. I just wanted to be able to play in the language that suited those modal "countries". If only there was an easy way to do that I thought!!!! I agree with you. Playing the notes at starting at the second, third, etc, steps in the major scale is something I have never been able to get my head around in the sense of producing anything meaningful when playing, and it's a major (no pun intended) reason for my failure for a long time to get the hang of playing modes. I found it particularly limiting in that for the same effect of a melodic run it was a different pattern on the fretboard for different modes in the same key - very unintuitive and confusing especially when making things up on the hoof. I think I've seen it referred to as a "series" method, while there is a "parallel" method that doesn't do this, but which I ultimately couldn't "get" either. It was a revelation to find that there was a "standard basic pattern for the three main minor modes, and for the three main major modes, with only minor variations of those two additional notes added to the pentatonic for each mode. It meant that the starting root point for all modes in the same key was similar and the shapes on the fretboard to get the same melodic effect were the same. When I twigged that those added notes were always in those gaps in the pentatonic scales separated by 3 frets helped. Dorian had the added notes next to the higher notes in those three steps gap, and Phrygian had the added notes just above the lower notes in those gaps. Those two modes were incredibly easy to remember. Aeolian less so, but it wasn't a big ask with a bit of practice - muscle memory to the fore. You're right about learning a bunch of shapes being limiting, but in my case it made the process of playing modes possible rather than impossible, so it was a great step forward. I have daft optimistic ideas that maybe when I retire and don;t have to use all my mental energy at work, i might be able to tackle the proper theory again. But I suspect I'm kidding myself. Mark
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Post by creamburmese on Feb 5, 2017 0:14:01 GMT
I agree with you about modes being an iffy concept to get your brain around Mark. I still get befuddled when I'm supposed to remember which step of a major scale it starts on etc etc. What worked for me was taking a "standard" major or natural minor scale and altering the notes - eg raising the 6th for Dorian. And as you say, it translates onto the fretboard too. Though working through all those words in your post has had the usual effect on my brain...
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Post by vikingblues on Feb 5, 2017 15:49:28 GMT
I agree with you about modes being an iffy concept to get your brain around Mark. I still get befuddled when I'm supposed to remember which step of a major scale it starts on etc etc. What worked for me was taking a "standard" major or natural minor scale and altering the notes - eg raising the 6th for Dorian. And as you say, it translates onto the fretboard too. Though working through all those words in your post has had the usual effect on my brain... Yes Julie - I didn't half make a simple point I was trying to make incredibly overcomplicated! I tend to use a lot of words with very little skill. What I should have done was just say:-Phrygian Mode in DADGAD - Fretboard Diagram - Minor Pentatonic + Eb and Bb. Filled in black circles = Pentatonic Scales. Circles with white centres = additional Phrygian notes which give the mode its character. THAT should have been it!
Mark
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Post by vikingblues on Feb 5, 2017 15:57:17 GMT
DORIAN in DADGADTrying to keep up simplicity ..... Dorian Mode in DADGAD - Fretboard Diagram - Minor Pentatonic + E and B. Filled in black circles = Pentatonic Scales. Circles with white centres = additional Phrygian notes which give the mode its character. *************** An attempt at Improvising in this mode 'Where's the Door Ian - GG'One thing I noticed moving from Phrygian to Dorian is that it's not just the two additional notes that change things to make it sound like Dorian instead of Phrygian - it's the playing style and rhythm needs to be adjusted too. Play it in the same style as works for Phrygian and it ends up sounding just like a characterless scale. Change it to a more, for want of a better word, rock (rather than flamenco) feel, and the Dorian character comes through. Maybe? Mark
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Feb 6, 2017 8:39:44 GMT
This entire thread... WHOOSH...
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Feb 6, 2017 10:10:38 GMT
This entire thread... WHOOSH... Some of this stuff is phrygian hard, isn't it...
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Post by vikingblues on Feb 6, 2017 19:50:54 GMT
I think I need to give everyone a break!!! Mark
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