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Post by vikingblues on Feb 16, 2017 19:51:33 GMT
My apologies if this is treading ground already covered on the forum. I don't remember seeing it, but my memory is not as reliable as it was. A search or two using the forum search engine didn't bring it up, so here goes. Basically James Taylor has revealed a method he uses for tuning his acoustic guitars which involves tuning strings flat. As if tunings not difficult enough! There's a video here talks about it and does comparison demos, and I've also linked under that an original James Taylor video on the same subject. EDITED TO SHOW THE JT VIDEO 2ND AND NOT A DUPLICATE!Funny thing - when the first video demos the same tunes played with the standard way of tuning and the way James Taylor recommends I find his method gives a more pure and perfect sound, but it somehow lacks character that the out of tune standard tuning method brings. Maybe just my ears are used to hearing an out of tune guitar! Mark
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Feb 16, 2017 23:50:14 GMT
Interesting vid, Mark. Guitar tuning has always been a tricky problem...some randomish thoughts with which you are welcome to agree or disagree!... The harder you press when fretting a string, the sharper the note will sound. The higher the fret, the more potential there is to sharpen the note with more pressure than is necessary. The harder you pluck a string, the sharper the initial attack will be by comparison with the rest of the note. Have you ever noticed that you listen to a chum playing a guitar which sounds perfectly in tune...until you grab it to play, and find you have to tweak the tuning ever so slightly? Ever wondered why? We each play with different amounts of force - the JT tuning method no doubt compensates for the amount of out of tuneness he introduces with the particular fretting and plucking forces he applies. We each tend to tune our guitar taking into account our own style of playing and also the peculiarities of the particular instrument. Electronic tuners have a lot to answer for - we now have a couple or more generations of guitar players who tend to assume that if it looks right with the tuner it must be in tune. As the blokey in the vid alluded to, if you play with eg a classically trained violin player they will be forever telling you that your thirds are way off. Tuning needs to take into account the whacky physics of fretted instruments, the players own techniques and style, and the context in which they are playing - other instruments and even other guitar players often introduce a need to be "out of tune" with the dratted "tuner" in order to make a pleasant sound. If a piece has mostly hard played notes of short duration, then when tuning, the notes need to be played like that, and tuned to the initial attack of the note. if, on the other hand, a piece has mostly sustaining long notes it may be better to tune to the later part of the note, after the initial attack begins to subside. If it sounds right, it is right, irrespective of what the needle/LED indicates. Different people have different capacities of detecting out of tuneness. Different people with an excellent sense of pitch will have different ideas of what is in tune depending on their background and training. There's just so much to ramble on about here, but I won't. I'll just go and tune up (by ear)and play my guitar! Or, as the beardy blokey in the vid said..."Ah, just do whatever you like..." Keith
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Feb 17, 2017 0:05:38 GMT
I do use a tuner to get me in the right ballpark, but fine tuning has to be down to your own sensibilities. I haven't found a tuner yet that doesn't want to make the low E sound slightly sharp to my ears. I prefer to use the 12th fret harmonic (sometimes comparing it with fretted notes on higher strings) rather than the open string too, but that only works properly if the intonation is set "correctly" - subject of course to those dratted laws of physics!
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Post by andyhowell on Feb 17, 2017 8:16:49 GMT
Agreed. The tuner gets you in the right area but in terms of fine tuning they lie !!! You can only rely on your ears!
I find this stuff a bit bizarre really. It might work in a big arena with a super sound engineer and PA but it doesn't work for me down at the Station Pub.
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007
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Post by 007 on Feb 17, 2017 8:41:20 GMT
Agreed. The tuner gets you in the right area but in terms of fine tuning they lie !!! You can only rely on your ears! I find this stuff a bit bizarre really. It might work in a big arena with a super sound engineer and PA but it doesn't work for me down at the Station Pub. Conjures up a nice picture Andy "Tonight Andy Howell Guitar supremo live at the Station Pub with full backing band and gorgeous female vocal backing singers Come and hear Andy as he reprises his 1982 smash album Going back to Dudley "A night to remember" Dudley Courier "Guitar playing at its very best " Birmingham Evening Post "Thats a lovely guitar he plays" Exchange & Mart Raffle draw and Bingo at half time No jeans and ladies in Hot pants please
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Post by vikingblues on Feb 17, 2017 8:46:47 GMT
I've edited the first post to include the James Taylor video too and not just a duplicate of the first one! Note to self - check it's right when you first post it on the thread. Quite right Richard - the tuner for the right ballpark and then fine tuning by ear. It's noticeable watching how many acoustic players, like Martin Simpson, in the chat between playing songs they are repeatedly doing that fine tuning. I found your thoughts illuminating rather than random Keith. -Your point that the JT method works for the way he plays a guitar is very valid! Which points I guess to there maybe being a solution of this type for each individual, but it needs tailored. Sounds like a lot of random trial and error needed if so. -JT also made the point in his video that every guitar is different which again suggests tailoring the method but for the guitar as well as the player himself. Certainly it's true that in using a capo on different guitars in my collection some are more affected tuning wise on the bottom string than others. -Possibly the fact that I'm more than a little bit of a wimp when it comes to how hard I attack strings on a guitar means I have less tuning issues than most. I have seen what you said about the note sounding sharper when first struck particularly if struck a bit hard - I've found that without really thinking about it I hit the notes fairly gently when tuning with the Snark and let the notes ring out - which is the way I play most of the time. It still needs fine tuning by ear though - but I do find the Snark a great help in getting to the right ballpark. I think you got on a roll there Keith just before you mentioned not rambling on anymore:- "--If it sounds right, it is right, irrespective of what the needle/LED indicates." "--Different people have different capacities of detecting out of tuneness." "--Different people with an excellent sense of pitch will have different ideas of what is in tune depending on their background and training." Three excellent points for you to close with! I'm pretty sure in my own mind that part of what makes for a guitar sound for me is it's "whacky physics" and natural tendency not to be quite in tune. I think we should embrace the concept and treasure it - I'm not so keen on sterile perfection! All of which doesn't help on those, happily few, days when no matter how you tinker the guitar just won't sound as if it's in tune at all. When that happens I'm not 100% sure if it's my ears having a bad day or my guitar having a bad day. I suspect it's the first of those and it's the only time Andy's very good point that you can only rely on your ears doesn't work. Mark
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Post by Phil Taylor on Feb 17, 2017 10:02:30 GMT
I do use a tuner to get me in the right ballpark, but fine tuning has to be down to your own sensibilities. I haven't found a tuner yet that doesn't want to make the low E sound slightly sharp to my ears. I prefer to use the 12th fret harmonic (sometimes comparing it with fretted notes on higher strings) rather than the open string too, but that only works properly if the intonation is set "correctly" - subject of course to those dratted laws of physics! I concur with this totally. I do however tend to rely more on the tuner on the odd occasion that I take my guitar to the folk club - nobody seems to care too much about tuning themselves because I'm told its all about the words As you know I don't do words and I generally speaking I don't listen to them much either if truth be told. I have to be held by the melody, harmony and structure of the song and of course the guitar playing which is my main obsession. The other night Lynne laughed at something in a lyric and asked me why I didn't laugh at a certain point in a song Brian Peters was singing. Believe it or not my mind was in Nazareth PA at a certain guitar factory. Well, he was playing a banjo Sorry, I digress..................... Phil
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Post by walkingdecay on Feb 17, 2017 10:36:18 GMT
As someone who has been known to agonise over tuning I've found some comfort in these wise words from Les Paul: "You look at the science behind the theory and it's all compromise. Nobody - nobody - is ever really in tune. Play with a new band and you find a meeting ground and decide to enjoy it there."
Apart from that, what Keith said.
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Post by earwighoney on Feb 17, 2017 11:09:56 GMT
I find it's best to consider tuning just enough, and not too much. Spending too much time considering tuning, intonation and so on can be a recipe for an immense amount of frustration.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 10:38:44 GMT
The first video.....the one where the gadgey plays a guitar in the 'usual tuning' then the guitar tuned in the compensated way......is it rather like The Emperors New Clothes? cos I can't hear much difference!!
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Post by slasher on Feb 22, 2017 13:49:02 GMT
Interesting! I played at a pub session on Monday last, there were eleven players, some multi instrumentalists, with guitars, banjos, fiddles,uke, whistle and accordion. On such occasions the clip-on tuner is a great asset as it enables everyone to get pretty well in tune and stay pretty well in tune easily and quickly. Perhaps not perfect but fairly close. A pet hate of mine is the performer who spends overlong searching for the perfect "in tune" sound without ever apparently finding it. At a concert a few years ago I even started timing the amount of time the performer spent tuning as quite a few of the audience commented (and rolled eyes). It seems we paid £5 to hear him tune as it was a £20 concert. Quite a few "never agains" were heard on the way out, self included.
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Post by oustudent on Mar 3, 2017 8:00:06 GMT
I tried the method proposed by JT and I didn't like the sound. Maybe it is something that needs more time spending on it, I am sure the theory is good.
I also recall Martin Taylor has some strange tuning "habits" with one string tuned at 420 instead of 440, can't remember where I read it now.
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Post by bellyshere on Mar 3, 2017 8:30:06 GMT
That JT tuning method sounds nice on my Martin but not on my Lowden.
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Post by missclarktree on Mar 3, 2017 12:02:43 GMT
My ear isn't great, and it seems to vary from one day to another. I used to rely on feeling the vibrations as much as hearing them. Now I use a tuner supplemented by faffing about a bit, but some days I just can't get it right no matter what. And if I do get it right, it doesn't stay there for long. I couldn't really tell any difference between the two in the video.
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