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Post by vikingblues on Jul 22, 2018 14:05:29 GMT
Madness I know! I downloaded this course through Truefire at, after a discount for signing up to the Truefire newsletter, around £20.
interactive video software available on the TrueFire app for Windows or Mac computers and iPads. Features include multi-angle video lessons, slo-mo, looping. Also can download the video lessons and PDF material to the computer. 03:42:00 Run Time (61 .MP4 Files), Charts (34 .PDF Files), Tabs (34 .GP5 or .PTB Files).
I'm not expecting to play anything like Pierre Bensusan, or even to understand much of what he does, but I'm hoping to pick up enough hints and tips to make the course worthwhile and to nick for my own tunes, some ideas and progressions from the Tabs of 4 of his pieces included in the course. Like with the "A Little Voyage" piece of mine that appeared at the Plucky Duck a few days ago.
I have already noticed that I play better after seeing one of his lessons even if what I'm playing is nothing to do with that lesson.
One thing I do know for sure - there are stretches he does that are way beyond my capabilities.
I could only - if straining dangerously - come within two frets of that stretch! I think at some point in one of the lessons I saw a more extreme one than that one above.
I will either come back to this thread and update with odd bits of progress, or pretend I never posted this and hope that it quickly withers and through time disappear from the current listing.
This is the entry point for finding out about and getting the course if anyone else is interested:-
Mark
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leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 24,549
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
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Post by leoroberts on Jul 22, 2018 15:23:20 GMT
Capo up the fretboard to make stretches easier - he's doing it! Or get a Terz guitar...oh, hang on, you've just passed one off haven't you?
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Post by vikingblues on Jul 22, 2018 19:23:41 GMT
Nice one Leo! I could manage a 6 fret stretch if it was 13th to 19th fret only the guitar body kinda gets in the way! But look - it's just got worse in the section on "Harp Effect Technique". Please tell me I'm seeing things and that's not a 3rd to 10th fret stretch! I'll need to set aside and ignore some of the possibilities of that lesson I think! On the plus side I've dipped into videos on Nail Return technique and there's some interesting techniques and interesting musical variation there. Not dissimilar in general concept to what Tony McManus does with his thumb triplets, but applicable to any thumb or finger, and varying multiple strokes - not just triplets. Mark
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Post by andyhowell on Jul 23, 2018 8:29:18 GMT
DADGAD stretches come with experience and practice. The good news is that to carry a basic tune you often don't need them. However, a stretch can open up wonderful harmonics and sounds in general.
One thing I sometimes do is to finger the route of a chord on the bass and then simply search around for matches down the fretboard that involve stretching.
Here is one tune based around such a stretch. It is the stretch that involves moving to the minor. I've been playing this for two years now but I still can't pick up a guitar and play it. I have to be properly warmed up. Anyhow, this should illustrate the point.
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Post by vikingblues on Jul 23, 2018 18:20:39 GMT
Very true what you say Andy and thanks for the video demo - some lovely sounds and harmonies and merging of notes going on there. It was apparent from what Pierre Bensusan was doing that such stretches give more possibilities for runs of notes where it's not necessary to cut off a note before moving to the next one. It's a very good effect and the use of open strings in DADGAD to achieve a similar effect is one of the reasons I like the tuning. I might just need to be selective with what possibilities I can attempt in that area. I do see that there are a couple of videos in the course on finger stretching. But I need to balance potential added musical technique with the needs of arthritic finger joints and the dangers of causing further damage to them. I am mindful that my father had to give up playing piano / keyboard due to his finger joints, and if it happens to me with guitar playing I want to delay it for as long as possible. Mark
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Post by andyhowell on Jul 24, 2018 7:29:50 GMT
I might just need to be selective with what possibilities I can attempt in that area. I do see that there are a couple of videos in the course on finger stretching. But I need to balance potential added musical technique with the needs of arthritic finger joints and the dangers of causing further damage to them. That's sensible. Stretches are a feature of some of my playing in DADGAD but not all of it. I simply don't have the time and inclination to follow this stuff through any more. I'm also a bit wary of slavishly following these lessons even though they are very valuable. For years I ran a club in which I used to make guitar players welcome. I lost count of the times people would turn up and try and do tunes from Intuit — none of those people owned the tune. DADGAD's individual harmonic qualities leads itself to these stretches. I think we've talked about this before but the C tunings tend to be far more compact. DADGAD extends down the fingerboard. The good news is that you can hint at chords quite often but there's no doubt that stretching can open up a unique range of sounds. I think my point about experimenting from a root in the base is that you can get a feel for which stretches might work for you without buggering up your joints :-) Anyhow, enjoy yourself. Because that is the most important thing!
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Post by vikingblues on Jul 24, 2018 19:32:59 GMT
Cheers Andy and thanks for your thoughts and advice. I particularly like your closing comment there about enjoyment being the most important thing - gets my vote! I am enjoying what I've seen so far and have seen things that I can apply. So yes, it'll be a case of cherry picking things from the course that appeal to me and that I can do without permanent physical damage. I think there's enough in there to make the course a worthwhile purchase. Nail return technique for example - I have been using this to some degree with my fingers already, but not with the thumb, and it's not taken long for that to become fluent enough to be part of the playing. DADGAD is a bad tuning for it's extra stretching demands to take full advantage of the tuning. I have dabbled a bit and will certainly continue to look at your idea for experimenting with the root in the bass etc., and I agree that the C tunings are more compact. I have played around with C tunings quite a bit and enjoy them too. But at the moment it seems like I'm coming home when I retune to DADGAD. So I can't leave it alone despite the stretching demands. Because tuning connects with me in some way I find I can be more expressive. Which means more enjoyment. I've certainly no intention of trying to play the Pierre Bensusan pieces on the course as tabbed. In the first instance they are not the same as what he plays for real in concert - the Voyage Pour L'Ireland in the tabs is poles apart to, say, the live silk mill session. In any case he does improvise quite a bit, so I suspect no two consecutive performances of a tune of his are the same. Secondly the tabs as presented although simplified, are tunes in a Pierre Bensusans style, which is not a style that is natural to me. Trying to play them like him will just produce a very, very poor imitation. Which won;t thrill me! Inferior as it may be I'm keen on working on developing a style that is part of me, warts and all. I favour making it up most of the time when I play anyway, as that makes me feel better. Mark
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Post by andyhowell on Jul 25, 2018 8:36:13 GMT
vikingblues What you said about connecting with a tuning is quite true in my experience. I played with the C and G tunings for years and years before I cracked DADGAD. Something about the basic sound DADGAD I found quite disturbing. Then one Christmas holiday when I was alone I decided to crack it and literally spent hours for three days getting to grips with basics. It made more sense for me to do this than to follow books! Of the tunings I use at the moment they seem to be falling into a few usage categories: C sus 2 (CGCGCD) — I use this predominately for instrumentals but as a accompaniment for some traditional and traditional sounding songs; C sus 4 sus 9 (CGCFCD) — predominantly to accompany songs but for a few instrumentals as well; G sus 4 — both tunes and songs DADGAD — increasingly for everything. There is just something about it. I keep coming back to it for traditional tunes that have a celtic-y bent to them. I also sing over it. And increasingly I love it for the blues. A few times recently I have accom[pnid a friend of mine who does all kinds of folky songs and tunes — DADGAD is great for bass runs to follow a song. There is someway in which I connect with DADGAD as well. Of the other tunings the one I would suggest persevering with is C sus 4 sus 9. The intervals on the bass 4 strings is exactly the same as DADGAD and I find I can very easily transcribe a tune from one to the other. It avoids the stretches and if your tune is more fundamental and 'English' then it works very well. It is great for singing against. But back to DADGAD and that connection. It is a bit mystical isn't it ;-)
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Post by delb0y on Jul 31, 2018 11:22:34 GMT
There's a Ton van Bergeijk course on Truefire that I'm very tempted by, but so far I've managed to resist. I know that it would be so far beyond my capabilities that it would likely cause more frustration than enjoyment or enlightenment. Nevertheless, maybe one day...
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Post by andyhowell on Jul 31, 2018 12:12:04 GMT
There's a Ton van Bergeijk course on Truefire that I'm very tempted by, but so far I've managed to resist. I know that it would be so far beyond my capabilities that it would likely cause more frustration than enjoyment or enlightenment. Nevertheless, maybe one day... These can be very useful. Mind you I tend to pick little things that seem to make sense to me and often don't get around to following the lessons through properly.
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Post by hughesy on Jul 31, 2018 18:28:46 GMT
I love Pierre Bensusan and used the 30 day free pass they offer (or were offering at least) to check out some of the content. It seemed good but I was a little disappointed the songs didn't seem to be the full recorded versions. I guess the point is not necessarily to play them exactly like Pierre......but he has the full transcriptions on his website some of which I have.
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Post by andyhowell on Aug 2, 2018 8:15:43 GMT
He does improvise a lot- see him twice and he never plays the same piece exactly the same way! I also suspect some of these might drive the poor guy transcribing then, completely mad :-)
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Post by vikingblues on Aug 3, 2018 7:44:34 GMT
DADGAD — increasingly for everything. There is just something about it. I keep coming back to it for traditional tunes that have a celtic-y bent to them. I also sing over it. And increasingly I love it for the blues. A few times recently I have accom[pnid a friend of mine who does all kinds of folky songs and tunes — DADGAD is great for bass runs to follow a song. There is someway in which I connect with DADGAD as well. Of the other tunings the one I would suggest persevering with is C sus 4 sus 9. The intervals on the bass 4 strings is exactly the same as DADGAD and I find I can very easily transcribe a tune from one to the other. It avoids the stretches and if your tune is more fundamental and 'English' then it works very well. It is great for singing against. But back to DADGAD and that connection. It is a bit mystical isn't it ;-) I note what you say about the more "fundamental and English" in regard to Csus4sus9. Maybe I need to get away from this Celtic / Scots influence that creeps into nearly all my playing these days in order to get to grips with some of the tunings other than DADGAD. But I agree there's something mystical about DADGAD, and it's odd how at home as a player we can find ourselves so very soon at home with some new tunings. It's like the logic and the sounds resonate immediately with our mind. I love Pierre Bensusan and used the 30 day free pass they offer (or were offering at least) to check out some of the content. It seemed good but I was a little disappointed the songs didn't seem to be the full recorded versions. I guess the point is not necessarily to play them exactly like Pierre......but he has the full transcriptions on his website some of which I have. Probably as well for me that they're not the full recorded versions on the transcriptions - I'd have no chance of getting to grips with them. Fortunately I'm looking for inspiration to help me play some music that comes from me rather than trying to play someone else's music. That's also a good get out clause for not making the attempt to play something really challenging! I've had too many challenges in my 63+ years yo want to volunteer for more!
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So a wee while after "A Little Voyage (An Fea Caol)" made an appearance in the Plucky Duck, I returned to the same tune in the course material. I mapped out the notes used in each half a bar. I then started trying to improvise some music based on those notes but with a different tempo, phrasing and with some missing out and adding in of notes. Just to try to create something that was "Mark" rather than a Pierre / Mark hybrid.
I did this on the all mahogany Giltrap guitar as An Fea Caol had sadly moved on.
I reckoned that a recording I did at the end of that trial with that guitar showed the playing on that guitar was too robust and a little mechanical for what I wanted.
I don't think mahogany is as lyrical as Cedar. So I swapped to the cedar top Giltrap guitar and after a day or so tried a recording again.
Better this time I thought - more reflective and thoughtful in sound.
Very different to the earlier "A Little Voyage" tune on An Fea Caol, but the same chord progressions and in essence the same notes.
Which just confirmed to me yet again that the guitar influences the player as well as the player influencing the guitar.
The guitar guides you to play to it's strengths and if it's strengths don't suit the style of music you're trying to make then the end result will be less than it should be.
It also confirmed how important rhythm is in the identity of a particular piece of music. The same notes and same scale can be turned into very different end material.
An interesting technique of Pierre Bensusan's that I have not tried, is that he has a strap on the guitar that goes round behind him. This allows him by pushing and pulling the neck to get vibrato on open strings - which on an open tuning gives the possibility of more variation in many notes being played.
I will nip into the Plucky Duck after I've created this post and let "The Voyage Continues" out into the public domain.
Mark
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Post by andyhowell on Aug 3, 2018 10:49:17 GMT
Which just confirmed to me yet again that the guitar influences the player as well as the player influencing the guitar.
The guitar guides you to play to it's strengths and if it's strengths don't suit the style of music you're trying to make then the end result will be less than it should be.
It also confirmed how important rhythm is in the identity of a particular piece of music. The same notes and same scale can be turned into very different end material.
An interesting technique of Pierre Bensusan's that I have not tried, is that he has a strap on the guitar that goes round behind him. This allows him by pushing and pulling the neck to get vibrato on open strings - which on an open tuning gives the possibility of more variation in many notes being played.
That's certainly true about the guitars! A cedar should resonate more than mahogany (I hesitate to say that as Dave will probably put me right again) but I know what you mean. I've clocked the strap thing before; he's not the only person to do it. Personally I just find this uncomfortable and inhibiting. Lawrence Juber has an interesting take on this which he calls the virtual Whammy bar. Basically, he plays a note and then takes the right arm where it rests open the body and moves this up and down to get a vibrato effect. This does work although I don't use it that much. I prefer to simply use vibrato on strings that I am fingering. If you google Lawrence Uber whammy bar you'll find several videos where he explains it. This seems more intuitive to me. Bensusan is in many ways a law unto himself!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 17:56:45 GMT
I also bought this course a while back when it was on special offer, although I haven't looked at it yet as am imagining it's way beyond my current level. I also bought the Tony Macmanus 'The Celtic Journeyman' course. I want to finish the Justin Folk Fingerstyle course and the Art of Contemporary Travis Picking book (I reckon another year) and then will tackle them!
Pierre is amazing, has played a lot with Didier Malherbe from Gong etc.
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