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Post by oustudent on Sept 20, 2018 6:09:11 GMT
I was listening to the Bert And John album recently, Bert's Jansch's fourth album assisted by John Renbourn recorded in 1966.
To my ears, the sound of the guitars on the album appears to be very woody and dry, not much evidence of sustain and brightness that we are accustomed to today from the current artists such as Clive Caroll etc.
Would you attribute this to the guitars they were using at the time or the method of recording used at the time?
We know that history tells us that Bert played anything he could get his hands on at the time and it could also be true for JR, any ideas as to what guitars they may have been playing on this recording?
J
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Post by scripsit on Sept 20, 2018 6:25:35 GMT
I remember reading that this album was recorded in the flat they shared, rather than a 'proper' studio, over the course of an afternoon and night.
Given the portable tape decks and corresponding microphones of the time, it's surprising that it sounds as good as it does.
I've got no idea of the guitars they were using, but the recording technology alone would flatten the lushest instrument.
Kym
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Post by andyhowell on Sept 20, 2018 6:53:33 GMT
I suspect this a bit of both. I think it is right about them recording in the flat and if the sound is flat then maybe they were using rugs or drapes to the sound.
But the guitars they used then were not like today’s fingerstyle instruments and probably were not as resonant - I’m thinking about the classic Martin and Guild type sounds.
Didn’t I read somewhere that Bert played this using a guitar he’d borrowed? A D18 I think.
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Post by jackorion on Sept 20, 2018 7:58:09 GMT
'Bert & John' was recorded by Bill Leader who, I understand, tended to use dynamic mics (I've read that he used AKG d12 mics which were initially marketed as 'general use' before they become the bass drum mic of choice they are nowadays) into a portable tape machine, such as a revox or grundig.
He would use a single mic for guitar and vocals, balancing the sound by monitoring on headphones and adjusting the mic position until the levels were fine. Seeing as on the stereo version of B&J Bert is in one speaker and John is in the other I assume it was one mic on each performer recorded onto separate tracks on the tape machine.
It looks like John was using a Scarth arch top at the time (http://www.johnrenbourn.co.uk/guitars/) and I believe that Bert just used to borrow whatever anyone would lend him - I think the first couple of albums were recorded with guitars borrowed from Martin Carthy and Archie Fisher (Martin 000-18/28/21 models I think).
I think the dryness comes from the dynamic mics and the home environment - dynamics tend not to pick up as much shimmer and detail as a condenser and home environments tend to either be overly lively (bathrooms and kitchens) or pretty dead sounding (bedrooms and sitting rooms).
I really like the sound of the Bill Leader produced Bert records - the debut, Jack Orion and Rosemary Lane all have an immediate-ness and intimacy to them that overcomes the slightly 'lo-fi by today's standards' sound - I'd been experimenting with different recording techniques in order to make a new EP/Album at home and I'm starting to edge towards using dynamics in order to cut down on room sound and to try and get that 'dry' sound.
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Post by malcolm on Sept 20, 2018 11:13:37 GMT
While it's true that Bert used to play any guitar quite happily, I'm sure the sound is mostly down to mics and recording technique. If you listen to other recordings from that period, eg Nick Drake, John Martyn, I think you will agree they all sound very similar. i am old enough to have spent many a night in "Les Cousins" and believe me, the technology then was very different from today's!
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Post by ocarolan on Sept 20, 2018 16:44:36 GMT
Exactly what jackorion said. (Plus shitty dead strings. Everybody played old strings then.) Bill Leader is a legend - I love his recordings too, Ben. Keith
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Post by lavaman on Sept 20, 2018 17:09:49 GMT
Exactly what jackorion said. (Plus shitty dead strings. Everybody played old strings then.) Bill Leader is a legend - I love his recordings too, Ben. Keith I read Nick Drake used to use very old electric guitar (nickel) strings. Iain
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Post by oustudent on Sept 20, 2018 17:23:16 GMT
I never considered strings, I wonder how much material technology has improved string manufacture in 52 years since
J
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Post by malcolm on Sept 20, 2018 18:03:59 GMT
I never considered strings, I wonder how much material technology has improved string manufacture in 52 years since J It's not only the material technology, there wasn't the choice that there is now, and they were relatively expensive. Black diamond were about all that was available, and we only changed them one at a time when they broke, I'm not kidding!
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Post by dobro on Sept 20, 2018 18:09:43 GMT
I never considered strings, I wonder how much material technology has improved string manufacture in 52 years since J It's not only the material technology, there wasn't the choice that there is now, and they were relatively expensive. Black diamond were about all that was available, and we only changed them one at a time when they broke, I'm not kidding! Been there, done that.BTW, when did John get his J50?
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Post by malcolm on Sept 20, 2018 19:02:08 GMT
It's not only the material technology, there wasn't the choice that there is now, and they were relatively expensive. Black diamond were about all that was available, and we only changed them one at a time when they broke, I'm not kidding! Been there, done that.BTW, when did John get his J50? If you're referring to the one on the cover of "another Monday" I don't think it was his at all, just a prop for the photo. He mostly played martins in those days as far as I remember, although it's a long time ago!
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Post by soundout on Sept 20, 2018 22:02:20 GMT
I saw most of those legendary acoustic players of the 60s/early 70s live, in various sized venues. Live, they nearly always sounded brighter and more vibrant than on vinyl, and that went for purely acoustic folk club gigs right through to large concert venues with PA of varying quality. If you listen to the early Dylan recordings you hear that same dry, flat guitar sound. The fact that some tracks were even played out of tune speaks volumes for the lack of attention given to instruments, strings and mic techniques. The song was the thing, apparently. Clearly no-one was particularly bothered about the state of the strings, for example. A lot of early Bill Leader albums had that same sound, and I think maybe the affection Bill engendered was down to his rapport with the artists, and his ability to elicit a heartfelt performance, with sound quality coming a poor third sometimes - that’s my guess anyway - I was not to be an ‘insider’ until many years after that era. What I did notice even as an amateur at that time, was that it was indeed possible to get a good guitar sound from the same players, and that the recording technique was capable of a brighter, clearer sound - so the choice of a flat sound must have been down to either a deliberate decision, or people not paying enough attention. Bert and John, for example, sound completely different on Pentangle’s Basket of Light album from how they sound on the Cruel Sister album. Why? I don’t know. If you listen to the acoustic sound on early Crosby, Stills and Nash work, or the legendary CatStevens albums of the era, it was clearly possible to get a more upfront, zingy sound.CSN used Martins, and Stevens/Alan Davies used shorter scale Gibsons, and the recordings were of such quality that you could clearly hear the different characteristics of those guitars. Just reading this now makes me realise that even as a punter, I was listening out for all that stuff back then. No wonder I have ended up taking such a pride in the sound I have got down the years, as a performer, and as a live and studio engineer. Nevertheless I have committed some fairly badly judged guitar sounds to vinyl/CD during the learning process. We can all make mistakes, and I reckon that some of the biggest acoustic guitar recording mistakes have ended up as legendary albums, despite the sound. Basically, talent and inspiration are always recognisable! Alistair Russell
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Post by dreadnought28 on Sept 21, 2018 6:29:23 GMT
It's not only the material technology, there wasn't the choice that there is now, and they were relatively expensive. Black diamond were about all that was available, and we only changed them one at a time when they broke, I'm not kidding! Been there, done that.BTW, when did John get his J50? Very true, couldn’t afford to buy sets frequently. Black Diamond or Rotosound if I recall correctly. Eventually I got to Martin Marquis strings and then John Pearse in 88 which I still use.
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Post by dreadnought28 on Sept 21, 2018 6:32:51 GMT
John played Ralph Bown guitars for the last 35 or so years of his life and it was he that led Clive Carroll to Ralph. Completing the circle, Clive bought John’s Bown OM after he passed away.
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Post by malcolm on Sept 21, 2018 9:11:14 GMT
John played Ralph Bown guitars for the last 35 or so years of his life and it was he that led Clive Carroll to Ralph. Completing the circle, Clive bought John’s Bown OM after he passed away. He certainly did play Ralph Bown guitars, not so sure about the 35 years though, he played a Franklin for a good while. Anyway back in the mid sixties guitarists just didn't have the choice, we just played what was available to us, even the professionals.
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