|
Post by otis1960 on Sept 5, 2020 21:10:11 GMT
Hello folks,
I am canvassing opinion once again:
I am pondering some pre-build options for my Falstaff, and got to considering tuning arrangements. I tend to tune down a half tone lately to aid my croaky voice, and, as I play in drop D rather a lot, then I end up with low 'E' tuned down to C#.
Once I throw a capo into the mix then tuning can become tricky; someone recently suggested that some higher-ratio tuners might help here. 510s seem to be a popular upgrade, as well as being standard equipment on many high end guitars, and are not overly expensive as an upgrade option.
So, what do you all think? Any experience of these? Are they the dog's danglies, or is it all smoke and mirrors?
Any advice gratefully received.
Thanks,
Otis
|
|
ocarolan
Global Moderator
CURMUDGEONLY OLD GIT (leader - to join, just ask!)
Posts: 34,016
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"c0cfe1"}
Mini-Profile Name Color: 182a3f
Mini-Profile Text Color: 733a1c
|
Post by ocarolan on Sept 5, 2020 22:00:22 GMT
I don't find the ratio to be of much concern in any tuners, though I am aware many do, especially when they know what it is. The way you hold and turn a tuner button has a huge effect on the sensitivity of tuning. Applying turning force to the button near the shaft of the tuner will be less mechanically efficient than applying force to the very edge of the button as the movement of your fingers will be less near the shaft, and greater at the edge of the button. This makes it (possibly unnoticably) harder to rotate the button from the centre than it is from the edge. But, more importantly, applying the force at the edge of the button means the fingers need to move further to achieve the same effect as would be achieved nearer the shaft. ie tuning is more sensitive by using the very widest part of the button. Changing ratios also changes the amount of finger movement to achieve the same effect, increasing or decreasing the potential sensitivity of your tuning. Before changing tuners, try changing how you use them - it's a lot quicker, simpler and cheaper. As to Gotoh 510 tuners I seem to be one of the few who aren't especially keen on them, or at least I am not fond of the very curvy buttons which are very thick in the middle and curve away to a thinner edge. I find them very unergonomic in use, and difficult to turn using the edge of the button. They are available with more conventional shaped buttons with a thicker squared off edge and I find these very handy to use; but no more so than their less expensive models. (Some of which I also find better to look at!) And, don't forget that very important things for accurate tuning are an accurately made instrument, a decent set up, appropriate string gauges and most important of all, your ears. I have no doubt that Roger can take into account your wish to downtune and also to downtune the bass string further and will provide you with an instrument that is accurately made and well setup for your purposes. Ask him to make the neck the same depth along all the length where you normally capo - this helps hugely with Shubb type capos and any others where there is a tension screw and the capo closes/uncloses with a click - you only need to set the screw once and the capo can be used anywhere you like in the same-depth-neck-region. And choose your string gauges carefully, making sure Roger knows what they are likely to be. And do tell us more about your Falstaff at some stage, please! Sorry, prob not the answer you were after, and apols if grandmothers and sucked eggs come to mind. Keith
|
|
|
Post by dreadnought28 on Sept 6, 2020 1:38:23 GMT
I love them. And that’s what are fitted on the Falstaff here. www.fyldeguitars.com/falstaff.htmlI wouldn’t choose anything else personally for this type of headstock.
|
|
|
Post by fatfingerjohn on Sept 6, 2020 7:01:02 GMT
I have Gotoh SGL510Z Cosmo on my lovely Lacey from Francis and they seem excellent to me. To be frank I only really notice the quality of the tuners if they're bad, if you see what I mean. I was fascinated by Keith's write-up as it's not something I've ever given any thought to i.e. where to hold the tuner knob etc. I must give it a go although, and I hope it's not a reflection of me being out of tune and not knowing it, I've never really had any problem with tuning and tuners except, as above, with bad, sticky ones on previous cheap guitars. Yes, I have to tweak sometimes when using a capo but its never been an issue.
As a comparison, the tuners on my Taylor are excellent as are the Shertlers on my Auden. I have 2 x Turner guitars with Grovers which are a bit stiffer but OK; they are 'open' as opposed to the others which are enclosed (sealed). I don't know if a tiny dab of grease would loosen them a little but its not been a problem.
FFJ
|
|
|
Post by jonnymosco on Sept 6, 2020 8:36:32 GMT
The feel of them would be down to personal preference, but the quality and smoothness are exceptional, you would expect them to be much more expensive.
Jonny
|
|
|
Post by forestdweller on Sept 6, 2020 9:05:33 GMT
Only ever had them on one guitar, and that was a Fylde. I adored them 🙂
|
|
|
Post by malcolm on Sept 6, 2020 9:37:17 GMT
I think they are excellent tuners and well worth the extra charge if you are having a custom build.
|
|
|
Post by andyhowell on Sept 6, 2020 10:05:17 GMT
I have Ghotos on my main guitar and think they are excellent. I use a variety of tunings and am always changing tunings up and down with no problems at all.
|
|
|
Post by otis1960 on Sept 6, 2020 13:49:30 GMT
Thanks Y'all, really useful feedback. I found Keith's contribution really interesting; I had also never considered use of tuners in quite that way.
I will, obviously, talk to Roger about this. I ordered a standard Falstaff, as that was what I played when I visited, and it seemed pretty much a perfect guitar. However, as it will not yet be in build I can ask him to upgrade the tuners with only a marginal add-on cost. It seems like a sensible choice, on the basis that a little more precision can't hurt, especially with light gauge strings.
I'll keep you posted, although I am not expecting Mr. F before early 2021.
|
|
|
Post by Onechordtrick on Sept 6, 2020 14:02:11 GMT
I think once you pass a certain quality point with tuners the biggest impact on the ease of tuning is how well the nut is cut for your strings. No matter how good the tuners are if the strings are binding in the nut then they’re likely to feel sloppy. Once you pass that quality threshold you’re starting to pay for looks rather than usability.
|
|
|
Post by jonnymosco on Sept 6, 2020 14:29:04 GMT
What are the standard Gotohs on the Falstaff?
|
|
|
Post by otis1960 on Sept 6, 2020 19:35:22 GMT
Not sure what the current standard is, as Gotoh seem to change the catalogue quite frequently. The Fastaff spec just mentions "gold-plated Gotoh tuners" I'll find out when I contact Roger.
|
|
ocarolan
Global Moderator
CURMUDGEONLY OLD GIT (leader - to join, just ask!)
Posts: 34,016
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"c0cfe1"}
Mini-Profile Name Color: 182a3f
Mini-Profile Text Color: 733a1c
|
Post by ocarolan on Sept 6, 2020 22:42:48 GMT
What are the standard Gotohs on the Falstaff? Not 501, unless Roger has changed very recently. However, there's really not a "standard" model of anything nowadays - the vast majority of instruments are made to order and hence are subject to the comissioning player's whims. And Roger's! My paddlehead Fyldes have Gotohs, but with less curvy castings and a lower gear ratio than the 510 series. They may well be from the SG301 series and have great service since 2011 and 2015. The picture posted by dreadnought28 is the Falstaff from the website catalogue of "standard" models. Tuners are Gotohs as stated in the bumf, but as far as I can tell in that pic they don't look like 510s to me Chris - the casings in the picture have an angle where the tapering shaft casing joins the main body of the tuner, unlike the 510 smooth curve. In fact they look identical to those on my 2015 Olivia which are deffo not 510s. I suspect they are a variety of these - guitarpartscenter.eu/en_US/p/GOTOH-SG301-20-guitar-tuners-GD%2C3-3/4327...various buttons are available - mine were black plastic (prob as per the pic Chris posted), which I soon changed to "sucked barley sugar" on my Alex and rosewood on my Olivia as the barley sugar ones were no longer available from Gotoh. Keith
|
|
|
Post by otis1960 on Sept 7, 2020 7:46:40 GMT
I think that the "standard" equipment was Gotoh 15:1, whatever that designation was at the time, as Gotoh seem to constantly change things. 510s only seem to go on the more expensive examples that Roger makes from time to time, or on the 'Customs'. Both of my McIlroys have gold Gotoh 15:1 with the 'barley sugar' buttons, and these are very good, so whilst I might just have been ensnared by the 'upgrade bug', I can't help thinking that 18:1 for minimal cost uplift makes a lot of sense?
|
|
|
Post by skyetripper on Sept 7, 2020 7:48:15 GMT
I had never given much thought to the tuners on my guitars until recently. Most of the worked well enough and I didn't associate loss of tuning to the tuners particularly. However, my Sobell has Gotoh 510's and I'm muchly impressed. I agree with ocarolan in that the buttons are a little slippery in shape, but the smoothness of the gearing (along with a well cut nut) more than compensates for this.
While Stefan was building the guitar I was contemplating getting some Keith Robson open back tuners fitted (https://robsontuners.com/product/501-lux/), partly because they are made locally to me and partly because they look fabulous. In the end I decided to stick with Stefan's recommendation for the 510's and I'm pleased I did.
Still fancy some Robson's, just to look at
|
|