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Post by vikingblues on May 29, 2014 7:57:01 GMT
The "Desert Island Tunebook" thread brought two works to my attention that are maybe well known to long established members of this forum, but they were completely new to a relative newcomer like me. I've now had in my possession for a few days .... 1) The "Butterfly" collection of original Fingerstyle Guitar pieces by Keith. 2) The "Travellers Tale" Collection of pieces (original compositions or arrangements) played by Mark Thomson. I am on around day 5 since I got the "Butterfly" and day 3 since I got the "Travellers". First off I have to say I'm bowled over at the quality of the music in these. I have that funny mixture of being both inspired by and intimidated by the music, and by the accompanying performances. I'm intending on a long term (it'll need to be) project in getting to grips with, or at least having a stab at, some of the pieces. There are some that are physically beyond me - either due to speed or physical limitations. There is also the really major hurdle - trying to even approach the level of fluidity and feeling and subtlety of the playing of the tunes by Keith and Mark. To start I have chosen one piece from each Collection:- "Coming Home" - the first piece in Keiths book - a relatively slow tempo and I really liked the sound of it as soon as I first heard it. "Roslin Castle" from Marks book - a traditional piece, beautifully arranged, and just the sort of guitar piece I've come to like the sound of so much in the last few months. "Coming Home" presented some issues that needed solving for me to try to play it. The pinkie on my fretting hand is very easily strained (arthritic joints) and I have to keep that at a minimum so that I can continue playing for a good many years yet I hope. So 2nd fret on the first string while the pinkie reaches for the 5th fret on the bottom string is just too dangerous and bloody painful. I think I have got around it by transferring some of the melody notes at around this point to the 2nd string, though I'll probably need to avoid the full number of pull offs and hammer ons shown on the Tab as I'm not able to utilise the benefit an open string brings. I am now at a stage where I can play the right notes* (as amended) of each part / phrase of the work BUT I'm a long way off being able to keep that going for the entire piece. To manage to get all those parts working together with no mistakes AND to get the sort of flowing lines (or is it an ebb and flow) Keith has in his recording is a big ask! (* I'm playing the right notes but not necessarily in the right order! ) "Roslin Castle" doesn't have any nasty stretches, which was a relief. It does have a rapid run on the first string of 5-3-7-5-3 (above the 5th fret capo) which Mark makes sounds so easy. No it isn't easy! Replacing the first of those 3s with 8 on the second string seems to have helped me keep the tempo at the moment. I also have the issue of trying to make the TW73 sound as good as possible with a capo at fret 5. I lose quite a lot of sustain with the Kyser Capo. The Spider Capo is better for sustain - particularly the lower register sustain - but I think I prefer the sound of the higher register notes on the Kyser. The way I'm playing it is currently too fast and too rigid in tempo and there needs to be way more interpretation. Plus the tune is going to have to sing - THAT is going to be a really big challenge on this one!! I find it can be helpful having a bit too much speed in the early stages of getting a tune together and then to be able to ease back on the throttle and let the music breathe and come to life. I am also still working through the Rob McKillop Scottish Tunes book and am also studying a set of Celtic guitar lessons. So it's going to be a busy summer - I must be mad! So don't expect much in the way of rapid progress - this Road Trips project I'm taking on is going to be a tough test for sure. I'll try and use this thread to post any half reasonable attempts, or partial ones even - I think it'll be a much longer time before I could expect to get any of these pieces in a state worthy of the Plucky Duck. I could well have many queries and questions on the way too. It's great that Mark, Keith, and of course Dave, were able to combine their talents to give others such as me a great opportunity to study such wonderful fingerstyle guitar playing. My thanks to you all. Just gotta love this forum. Mark I drafted this post earlier and it's taken me two days to get the nerve to start the thread. Fear of publicly biting off more than I can chew.
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alig
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Post by alig on May 29, 2014 8:21:32 GMT
Good for you, Mark!
First step's always the hardest - and all that.
Three things:
You'll have a ball.
You'll learn loads.
You'll have a ball.
The moment you realise you're playing easily a piece that weeks ago you struggled with is worth all the repetition, irritation and swearing.
Looking forward to this thread.
Alasdair.
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Post by ocarolan on May 29, 2014 8:42:03 GMT
Good stuff Mark - now you've gone public there's no going back! Congrats on doing so, and thank you for your kind words. I was wondering if your little finger might be able to cope with the first hurdle you mention if you were to capo up a couple of frets to reduce the stretch? It would make life trickier with the woodwork getting in the way up the dusty end later on at one point in the second part of the piece, esp on a 12 fretter, but it's just about do-able and could well be refingered lower if necessary. Mark's Roslin Castle is fab, though confess I've not tried to play it yet! All the best with this project Mark - look forward to hearing more in due course. Keith
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Post by brianr2 on May 29, 2014 9:15:32 GMT
Well done that man. I cannot think of a better way to spend the summer. I have also been playing tunes from Keith's and Mark's books in recent days. " Roslin Castle" is a favourite of mine too, though I cheat on the tricky bit you mention by simplifying the final notes into 5-3 hammer ons and pull offs: I too suffer from limited hand-stretch, in my case caused by very short fingers and aged joints, as well as general incompetence. I also love Keith's "Lament", one his other too infrequent forays into the "Devil's Tuning". (I now find DADGAD and other alternative tunings much more inspiring than EADGBE, to the extent that I very rarely play in the latter). There is another a good version of "Roslin Castle" in Rob McKillop's other book HERE. I look forward to further reports on progress. Good luck. Brian
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Post by brianr2 on May 29, 2014 15:38:08 GMT
There is another a good version of "Roslin Castle" in Rob McKillop's other book HERE. I look forward to further reports on progress. Good luck. Brian Oh dear, my memory is in an even worse state than the rest of me, poor old soul. Rob Mackillop's version of "Roslin Castle" is in THIS BOOK
Brian
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Post by vikingblues on May 29, 2014 18:29:23 GMT
Thanks for the encouragement - helps to keep the momentum going. Alasdair - hope you're right about those three things! Keith - yes, going public! What was I thinking? I'll think about that suggestion you made ref the capo - though as you say with a 12 fretter like the TW73 that will make the part of the piece at the dusty end tricky. I do have a 14 fretter in the TW45 but it's longer scale so a capo on fret 2 of that would only be the equivalent gain stretch wise of a 1 fret difference. I think to a large extent it's actually the stretch across the fretboard that's the problem more than the stretch lengthwise. Brian - I hadn't noticed the "Roslin Castle" in that Rob MacKillop book, which is one of the three books I'm working on just now - but it's in the DADGAD section, which I've hardly looked at yet. Very interesting to compare and listen to the two different arrangements. Very different, using different parts of the guitar, so very different tones result before taking account of different playing styles, and though they are recognisably the same piece the interpretations have as many differences as similarities. Though both recorded versions have one thing in common - a great musical skill and sensibility. Thanks for pointing it out. If I can ever manage to get "The Chancellours Farewell" into OK shape I might try that, assuming I've finished the Mark Thomson version by then. I've been listening to Mark Thomsons "Solway Sunset" album in the car the last few days and concentrating on the exquisite things that he does with the melody lines and his phrasing has been near to distracting me from my driving. I'm hoping that some of these skills of Mark and Keith rub off on me in pursuing this project. If that happens it'll be worth any frustrations along the way. I'd really like it to happen! This is all way more challenging than anything I have tried on the guitar before. There's so much quality needed in the tone, the physical playing, and the interpretation. I'm not 100% sure that I, or even my guitar, are adequate for the task. Won't stop me trying though. For light relief and to keep sane I can always try and bash out the odd multi track mandolin family fun-type piece. Must get to the practice now. Mark
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Post by missclarktree on May 29, 2014 19:21:46 GMT
It's great to have something to throw yourself into. I'll look forward to hearing your posts over the next few months.
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Post by vikingblues on May 29, 2014 22:16:01 GMT
Thanks Alison! If it all goes pear shaped I'll have to make sure it's not the sea I throw myself into ... it's just a short stroll away and very conveniently downhill. Keith - I tried out the capo on fret 2 with "Coming Home" - it does make the fret 2 and 5 stretch quite a bit easier, and the higher notes can work OK if I drop just one of the lower non-melody notes. So, a good suggestion, and one which ought to be a plus for me, but I can't get the TW73 to sound as good for tone with that capo I use. Practice went not too bad tonight. Surprising given how tired I feel. No reduction in numbers of wrong notes, but the interpretation started to hang together a bit better. Mark
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Post by vikingblues on May 31, 2014 19:50:17 GMT
Thought I'd better show I have been working on this project as I'm now around a week into it. I've not got to the stage yet of making public any of the "Coming Home" piece yet. I would get really frustrated trying to record it as my mistakes are still kicking in too often. But it's slowly improving and I'd like to be able to make a stab at it as it's an excellent piece of music ... well it is when Keith plays it! I've managed to get far enough with the Mark Thomson arrangement of Roslin Castle to start recordings to check out how goodbad it sounds. My first attempt was using the TW73 which I can only record acoustically. The recording confirmed my reservations voiced elsewhere about the effect on the TW73 tone of the Kyser Capo. Not good. SO I had a go tonight using the TW45 which doesn't seem as badly affected by a capo and I've also used the Yamaha THR5A amp to record from the TW45 electrics. Roslin Castle - TW45 capo 5 - amped - PocketrakNo fx on the amp and I used the condenser microphone setting. Couldn't be bothered with faffing around on the computer when I was making the recordings (lazy, that's me) so I just recorded the amp using the Pocketrak PR7. I'm not too unhappy - I feel there is progress. But there's also room for more progress. Especially after listening a lot to Mark Thomson's playing in the last week and hearing just how well he can shape a melody and extract great tone. I'm putting a link here to also have the TW73 version with the capo's sound I'm uneasy about. It really is lacking compared to the usual TW73 sound, such as on "The Chancellours Farewell" in the Plucky Duck earlier today. TW45 - capo 5 - sound issue?Back to working at these two pieces tomorrow - in between stints of tackling yet more overgrown ivy in the garden. Note to self - don't leave it unattended for another 17 years! Mark
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Post by ocarolan on May 31, 2014 22:35:36 GMT
You don't hang about do you Mark?! Excellent work on Roslin - you certainly should be happy with it - and it will get even better I'm sure. I know what you mean about the "sound issue" track (though I believe you have made a typo in the link title referring to TW45 rather than TW73)- it is a little lacking in fullness of tone and sustain, but not at all unpleasant. The amped track is a credit to the THR5A as well as to your playing - keep being tempted by one of those!
You can keep working at this and other pieces whilst attacking the ivy - I find it helpful to "play" pieces in my head whilst learning them - imagining the fingering and hearing it in my head as I "play". Sometimes "play" myself to sleep like this, but it could also work well whilst gardening I'm sure. Just be careful with any sharp tools....
Keith
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Post by brianr2 on Jun 1, 2014 7:19:13 GMT
Wonderful version of Roslin Castle. I really enjoyed it. Very well played. Your road trip is really whizzing along.
Brian
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Post by leoroberts on Jun 1, 2014 8:01:17 GMT
Good work, that man I preferred the second version - just sounded more natural to me, sound issues or not
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Post by missclarktree on Jun 1, 2014 9:56:00 GMT
Lovely tune and really well played. Hard to say which version I preferred. I see what you mean about the effect of the capo but I didn't dislike it. I liked both versions in different ways.
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Post by vikingblues on Jun 1, 2014 11:18:15 GMT
You don't hang about do you Mark?! Excellent work on Roslin - you certainly should be happy with it - and it will get even better I'm sure. I know what you mean about the "sound issue" track (though I believe you have made a typo in the link title referring to TW45 rather than TW73)- it is a little lacking in fullness of tone and sustain, but not at all unpleasant. The amped track is a credit to the THR5A as well as to your playing - keep being tempted by one of those! You can keep working at this and other pieces whilst attacking the ivy - I find it helpful to "play" pieces in my head whilst learning them - imagining the fingering and hearing it in my head as I "play". Sometimes "play" myself to sleep like this, but it could also work well whilst gardening I'm sure. Just be careful with any sharp tools.... Keith You're right about the typo Keith - the second link should read "TW73 - capo5 - sound issue?". Having listened back to the TW73 recording it's not bad - but certainly not as good as it is with no capo, and I just find that niggles away with me somewhat. There is at times almost a whistle on some of the notes! Thanks you for the very positive response to the playing. I do enjoy playing this one a lot - and I hope to keep working on it. It's not got the individual stamp or ornamentation on it that Mark Thomsons version has and his ebb and flow of the piece is masterful. Mine is very one paced by comparison. But that's part of the aim of this project - compare and contrast and try to learn how to bring some added extras to a final polished piece (one day). I've not listened very often to Marks version so far - I think that will become more useful now I've got the basics under the belt - on the plus side I see I've come in about right on tempo. There's quite a lot of hours gone into this already - I've got quite obsessive about it to be honest. So that's speeded up progress. Wonderful version of Roslin Castle. I really enjoyed it. Very well played. Your road trip is really whizzing along. Brian Thank you Brian - your comments are much appreciated. Good work, that man I preferred the second version - just sounded more natural to me, sound issues or not Thanks Leo - I think I agree with you having listened again to both versions today - but difficult to say as the "electric" sound is just a horse of a different feather(!). I just wish I could get the usual TW73 sound with the capo at 5. Lovely tune and really well played. Hard to say which version I preferred. I see what you mean about the effect of the capo but I didn't dislike it. I liked both versions in different ways. Many thanks Alison. It is a lovely tune - I wanted to try it as soon as I heard it. I was pleased by how few technical problems it posed to at least to be able to play the right notes ... and in the right order. Interpretation - well that's a long term task. I do wish I didn't feel so sensitive to the capo sound issue, because it's not horribly bad. .......................................... Been concentrating solely on the "Coming Home" piece so far today - another tune that I wanted to try as soon as I heard it. One day I'm hoping I'll play it through with no mistakes, and then to be able to do that while staring at the sound recorder, but at the moment I'd have to record each section separately (with several takes) and then have to stitch them together. Think that would be cheating just a little bit! Till later Mark
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Post by markthomson on Jun 1, 2014 14:36:44 GMT
Great Job on Roslin Castle Mark!
Dont get too hung up about the capo position,the original key is either Dm (no Capo) or Em (Capo 2), I think I played it at 5 just because Dave's guitar sounded so sweet.
Nowadays I tend to play it in a medley with a tune called the Butterfly, and play it Capo 2 as in this vid -
The ebb and flow will come once you don't need to think about hand positions etc and can concentrate on feeling the music. It's a great tune which encourages you to leave plenty space as you play it.
Cheers! Mark
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