David Hutton
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Post by David Hutton on Aug 27, 2014 11:24:31 GMT
Currently I am trying to learn Ocarolan’s excellent denison’s delight. Getting there slowly and really enjoying the experience. A big thank you to Keith for sending me the tab. I have a process to work out how to play a tune, it’s slow but it almost works. However I would really love to be able to play a piece of music without having the tab in front of me and really struggle to do this. I am not sure how much I actually use the tab when I am playing, but cannot seem to play without it. Does anybody have any tips of how to get over the reliance on tab? Or is this just something that one learns when they become a more accomplished guitar player i.e. not having to teach yourself a new set of chords for every song and perhaps being able to work out tunes from ear.
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Aug 27, 2014 12:18:54 GMT
I often use TAB to learn a piece too, although I'm trying to move away from over-reliance as it were.
I find that when I can play a piece reasonably well from the TAB, I have learned it in phrases at a time. I then try to play each phrase that I've learned, one at a time without the TAB and then revert to the music for the rest of the piece. Once I can do this smoothly, I then try to include the second phrase, ignoring the TAB just for that small part, and so on.
Building it up in small ways like this is the only way I can keep a piece in my head, and if I'm not playing it regularly, then I still need to refer to the TAB briefly after 'learning it' off the page.
Sorry if this isn't very clear, but I guess what I mean is, break it up into very small pieces and try to do them from memory, adding a little at a time until you've got it all.
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Post by andyhowell on Aug 27, 2014 12:33:34 GMT
TABS are of course very useful but they are also the stuff of nightmares.
I ran a club for some years and my heart used to sink when guitar players started out on something that they had learnt by TAB. So many of them didn't take the tab as a start off point but tried to learn it off by heart — they somehow forgot about the heart of the music, the swing, the rhythm and so on.
I was — strangely enough — mussing on this as I played live on Sunday. At the end of singing a new song I decided to add a little finger style waltz instrumental at the end. It went for me horribly wrong! However, few people seemed to notice I think because even the mistakes were fluid!
For my money becoming fluid in your playing is one of the critical things guitar players need to aim for. Play less notes if necessary and you will play them better.
A TAB can reveal all kinds of little tricks of the trade. But you need to know when to lock them away and play real music !!!
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David Hutton
Cheerfully Optimistic
Posts: 1,179
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Post by David Hutton on Aug 27, 2014 15:26:09 GMT
I often use TAB to learn a piece too, although I'm trying to move away from over-reliance as it were. I find that when I can play a piece reasonably well from the TAB, I have learned it in phrases at a time. I then try to play each phrase that I've learned, one at a time without the TAB and then revert to the music for the rest of the piece. Once I can do this smoothly, I then try to include the second phrase, ignoring the TAB just for that small part, and so on. Building it up in small ways like this is the only way I can keep a piece in my head, and if I'm not playing it regularly, then I still need to refer to the TAB briefly after 'learning it' off the page. Sorry if this isn't very clear, but I guess what I mean is, break it up into very small pieces and try to do them from memory, adding a little at a time until you've got it all. Thats great thanks Martin, I think that makes sense and will give it a go.
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David Hutton
Cheerfully Optimistic
Posts: 1,179
My main instrument is: The Colin Symonds All English Guitar
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Post by David Hutton on Aug 27, 2014 15:35:01 GMT
TABS are of course very useful but they are also the stuff of nightmares. I ran a club for some years and my heart used to sink when guitar players started out on something that they had learnt by TAB. So many of them didn't take the tab as a start off point but tried to learn it off by heart — they somehow forgot about the heart of the music, the swing, the rhythm and so on. I was — strangely enough — mussing on this as I played live on Sunday. At the end of singing a new song I decided to add a little finger style waltz instrumental at the end. It went for me horribly wrong! However, few people seemed to notice I think because even the mistakes were fluid! For my money becoming fluid in your playing is one of the critical things guitar players need to aim for. Play less notes if necessary and you will play them better. A TAB can reveal all kinds of little tricks of the trade. But you need to know when to lock them away and play real music !!! Yes I can see that just replicating the tab could remove the heart of the music and prevent you from putting a bit of yourself into it. However as a starter I would not know where to start without the tab. I hoping that by learning more tunes that I might develop to be able to play things by ear, but appreciate that this might be a bit of a leap.
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Aug 27, 2014 15:43:36 GMT
I think it's important to recognise that the TAB allows you to translate the music to your fingerboard, rather than replacing the recording. I always use TAB in conjunction with a recording of what I want to learn, or if available, a video performance.
Without internalising and knowing the tune I'm trying to play, the TAB does nothing for me.
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Post by andyhowell on Aug 27, 2014 15:51:58 GMT
Yes I can see that just replicating the tab could remove the heart of the music and prevent you from putting a bit of yourself into it. However as a starter I would not know where to start without the tab. I hoping that by learning more tunes that I might develop to be able to play things by ear, but appreciate that this might be a bit of a leap. The tab is the starting position. I tend to feel that a lot of guitarists are hooked on trying to learn literal renderings of their favourite tunes, complete with the nuances and tricks of their favourite guitarist. On my behalf I learnt a long time ago to forge technique in favour of fluidity. I would rather play a simpler version of a tune better than a more complicated version more clunkily. What I mean by this is that often the fluidity of the time and tempo of the piece suffers. One of the weird things about learning a tab by rote is that most artists change their own tunes over time and, indeed, some are never played quite the same way twice. Elsewhere here you will find a link to two recent video interviews with Pierre Bensusan — a very interesting philosophy of when something become pure music! Of course, start with tabs for clues and tips but then make deliberate attempt free yourself from them. Maybe though, this is all just a philosophy for covering up my own lack of technique !!!
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Aug 27, 2014 18:27:15 GMT
I often use TAB to learn a piece too, although I'm trying to move away from over-reliance as it were. I find that when I can play a piece reasonably well from the TAB, I have learned it in phrases at a time. I then try to play each phrase that I've learned, one at a time without the TAB and then revert to the music for the rest of the piece. Once I can do this smoothly, I then try to include the second phrase, ignoring the TAB just for that small part, and so on. Building it up in small ways like this is the only way I can keep a piece in my head, and if I'm not playing it regularly, then I still need to refer to the TAB briefly after 'learning it' off the page. Sorry if this isn't very clear, but I guess what I mean is, break it up into very small pieces and try to do them from memory, adding a little at a time until you've got it all. I think Martin is spot on with this in terms of how I do it. Once I have the tab in my head I then play it over and over again until it's reasonable. Phil
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Post by vikingblues on Aug 27, 2014 19:38:57 GMT
I often use TAB to learn a piece too, although I'm trying to move away from over-reliance as it were. I find that when I can play a piece reasonably well from the TAB, I have learned it in phrases at a time. I then try to play each phrase that I've learned, one at a time without the TAB and then revert to the music for the rest of the piece. Once I can do this smoothly, I then try to include the second phrase, ignoring the TAB just for that small part, and so on. Building it up in small ways like this is the only way I can keep a piece in my head, and if I'm not playing it regularly, then I still need to refer to the TAB briefly after 'learning it' off the page. Sorry if this isn't very clear, but I guess what I mean is, break it up into very small pieces and try to do them from memory, adding a little at a time until you've got it all. Thats great thanks Martin, I think that makes sense and will give it a go. I'm going to have to try that too as I also struggle to play without TAB in front of me. Though I might struggle - my memory isn't as good as it was. Well I think it used to be better but I can't remember. I put off having to do it by enjoying improv I think - where I can let the creative side free and not have to think analytically about what notes to play very much. Yes I can see that just replicating the tab could remove the heart of the music and prevent you from putting a bit of yourself into it. However as a starter I would not know where to start without the tab. I hoping that by learning more tunes that I might develop to be able to play things by ear, but appreciate that this might be a bit of a leap. The tab is the starting position. I tend to feel that a lot of guitarists are hooked on trying to learn literal renderings of their favourite tunes, complete with the nuances and tricks of their favourite guitarist. On my behalf I learnt a long time ago to forge technique in favour of fluidity. I would rather play a simpler version of a tune better than a more complicated version more clunkily. What I mean by this is that often the fluidity of the time and tempo of the piece suffers. One of the weird things about learning a tab by rote is that most artists change their own tunes over time and, indeed, some are never played quite the same way twice. Elsewhere here you will find a link to two recent video interviews with Pierre Bensusan — a very interesting philosophy of when something become pure music! Of course, start with tabs for clues and tips but then make deliberate attempt free yourself from them. Maybe though, this is all just a philosophy for covering up my own lack of technique !!! While working at playing the tunes in Rob MacKillops Scottish Guitar book I've found myself using the tab more and more as a rough guideline. Just like you mention Andy with a tune being changed, Rob MacKillop says he never plays the tune the same way twice and encourages variation and for the player to interpret it themselves. I do think it's useful for me to try and anticipate the flow and sound of the piece and the phrrasing without looking too much at the full musical stave for the precise timings (which tend not to be precise when you hear the piece played anyway). Glad to know there's someone else out there currently working at Keiths wonderful book David. I'm currently having fun with slowly getting to grips with "Ariel". I do find that Keith generally makes the pieces sound a lot easier when he plays them! I'm afraid I currently have quite a few tunes in the book that are "in progress" and none of which have yet reached the stage of being suitable for public airing. Mark
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Post by andyhowell on Aug 28, 2014 15:04:48 GMT
That Scottish Guitar book sounds interesting. Must investigate!
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Post by vikingblues on Aug 28, 2014 15:16:08 GMT
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Post by andyhowell on Aug 28, 2014 15:19:25 GMT
Bought it — bugger Amazon ... .. only 5 left folks!
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Aug 29, 2014 8:07:54 GMT
Bought it — bugger Amazon ... .. only 5 left folks! And me Phil
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brianr2
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Post by brianr2 on Aug 29, 2014 8:17:34 GMT
andyhowell and Phil Taylor: good decision! Its a cracking book which I return to repeatedly and always find something new. His other book - HERE - is also worth a look. I am sure you will enjoy getting in touch with your inner Scot... Brian
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Aug 29, 2014 9:19:45 GMT
Rob's a very skilled multi-instrumentalist. Not content with guitar, banjo and uke, he makes lute playing seem easy too! Maybe we should invite him back on here (well, he joined the 'old' forum to help when we had the project based on the above book)?
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