R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Oct 16, 2015 14:45:54 GMT
Next I reinforced the area behind the hole and routed out the hole and then put the bandsaw around the outline of the soundboard. (Spot the recovering dog. He's on 'roids now.) The reinforcement around the hole is somewhat truncated by the needs of the “heel-block” (i.e. the end of the neck) and the bracing. Here the main braces have been interlocked with halving joints, the main one of which is actually more like three-quartering since it will be bridged with a reinforcing piece once everything has been carved to shape. I glued these in place with hot-hide glue, though I might use fish-glue next time to reduce my adrenaline levels: Then it was the turn of the smaller braces to fill in the gaps. I stopped them sliding around by temporarily gluing little stops to the tape guides: No pictures, I’m afraid, but I can reassure you that all these braces had previously been slid up and down my sanding trough at exactly the right angles so that the arc across the soundboard would have a radius of precisely 1773.75mm (give or take a yard! – don’t ask me where that number came from; it just looked right when I was drawing it). You can see the sanding trough under the soundboard above. Then on to carving the braces. Now the first "flat-top" I built (see Almost built first build) had what is known as scalloped braces, which looked suitably arcane as far as I was concerned so that I could impress observers with my wizardry; but it seems to me that that guitar has ended up being rather over-braced and I wanted to find some way to allow a bit more freedom of movement this time. I notice that ajlucas and davewhite amongst others use tapered (parabolic?) bracing and that seemed to make more intuitive sense to me. I then followed up a mention by Dave White of discussions with Scott van Linge and read his articles on the subject, which seemed to make sense in some respects (though I also understand DW’s misgivings in others). I think the point is that he has at least put his mind to the question and hasn’t just followed what C F Martin seemed to have done on some of their pre-war models. There’s an internal logic to what van Linge does and therefore a certain consistency to his methods. So now I am a parabolic bracer! - until, of course, I am swayed by the next article I read... However, when it comes to shaping braces into accurate parabolas, of course, there are problems – especially since van Linge advocates a parabolic curve both across and along the brace. I tried to get as close as I could in terms of cross-section by cutting out some little tapered parabolas to fit over the braces as I carved: But lengthways just has to be a gentle taper which “gets a bit steeper towards the ends”, I decided. Anyway, here are some photos of my progress: … and I still have plans to take them down a bit further. (That’s my solera incidentally in the last photo). The problem is obviously knowing how far to go... You'll also notice that nothing down the far end is notched into anything else; daring stuff!
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
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Aemulor et ambitiosior
Posts: 3,548
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Post by davewhite on Oct 16, 2015 15:41:49 GMT
Rob, That's certainly coming along nicely. Interesting bracing. I think "parabolic" is a much abused word for bracing profiles, I call it tapered - i.e no big changes or scallops - and that's what you seem to have going on there. As to how far to take it down you can only learn that by trial and experience. When you flex the top along it's length you want good stiffness there and can have more flex from side to side. When you tap around the top I would be looking for a good "musical" ringing and sustain everywhere. Good on you making your own purfling for the rosette
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Oct 16, 2015 17:43:12 GMT
When I do my final trim and sand, I'll bear your words in mind but, as you say, I lack the experience to know when something sounds right. I'll just have to be a quick learner.
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Oct 17, 2015 12:26:46 GMT
So now it’s neck time. My mahogany table top, which I used for the neck of the first build almost built, is exceedingly dense; I calculated it recently at around 900kg/m3 and it’s resulted in a neck which is a bit heavier than necessary. Not really a problem but this time I thought I’d try to modify it a bit with a lighter timber down the middle and what do I have loads of? Douglas Fir. Unconventional to use a softwood in a neck perhaps but it’s tight grained and 80 years old and most of it will be routed out to accommodate the truss rod and carbon fibre so there won’t be a problem unless it gets dented a lot. I’ll just call that “patina”. Here’s the resulting blank: and, for all you timber experts, here’s the end-grain of the mahogany: Whatever it is, I don’t think it’s available in Wickes. Next I sliced of the headstock and a bit at an intended 11° but which came out as 14°, which was an accident but serendipitous since I then remembered I’d intended to increase the angle to about this much anyway. Here’s a picture of the slice: Like one of Nadiya’s, isn’t it? And, just to show how high-tech I am, here it is cramped up with a laser, no less, shining a nice straight line on it! (The brickwork looks pretty straight as well.) I avoided slippage here by putting a couple of pins through the join before gluing it up. Here’s the angle, by the way: I like to have the join this way round so that the fingerboard reinforces the joint. Two more bits of table-top and a few strips of quarter-sawn Douglas Fir make up the heel-block blank. By the way, I initially glued the Douglas Fir pieces to each other with fish glue but there was a distinctly dark area around the join where it had soaked in so I had to re-do it with something unmentionable. I suspect it only does this when the grain is orientated like this because it hasn’t happened along the Douglas Fir/Mahogany join. Flattened everything and then routed out the neck ready to receive the truss-rod and two carbon-fibre pieces; I finally paid up and bought proper luthier’s 8 x 4mm strips despite what I talked about above (a long way above). I decided to keep up the Douglas Fir theme by utilising the door panels. These are always very decorative but are, in fact, plywood. However, it is very substantial 3-ply and the top is quite easy to slice off and clean up. Again, I’m not sure how many knocks it will take before looking a bit battered. Call it patina. While I was about it, I drilled and shaped the headstock to almost final size using one of my trusty paper cut-outs: I hope some of you realise that my headstock is in fact an homage à Westone, incidentally. Here is a Westone headstock, which also gives the strings a nice straight run through to the machine heads: Another slight error coming up. The plan is to run the “heel-block” under the soundboard so that they can be glued together; this is easy when building on a solera, of course, because you are building from the face through to the back. However, I forgot about this when installing the truss rod so it didn’t make life easy for me when I was trying to first flatten and then gently curve the end bit so that it would make good contract with the underside of the soundboard. Next time I will sink the truss-rod a little deeper! You can see the housings for the ends of the “A-braces” in the top of the heel-block in this picture, too. Anyway, having removed a small channel from the soundboard, the heel-block now sits nicely where it should, though it’s not yet glued in place: Not yet glued in place because I have to cut housings for the rim to enter in the sides of the block and generally shape it to fit. I’m wondering at the moment whether to leave it as a hefty block in the middle of an otherwise fairly light guitar or whether to trim off all excess and leave a skeleton. I know it’s good to have a light and therefore responsive guitar but that surely refers to the box alone rather than to the neck and blocks etc. Advice welcome (though not necessarily followed).
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Post by earwighoney on Oct 17, 2015 13:18:20 GMT
Some great pictures.
Is the Mahogany of the Cuban species? It's generally heavier than Honduran. FWIW, heavier Mahogany produces some of my favourite sounding guitars.
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Oct 17, 2015 13:43:27 GMT
Afraid I don't know what it is exactly, which is why I included the picture of the end-grain; that is usually conclusive if you know your timber. As a furniture restorer/french polisher I suppose I ought to know the difference but most of what I do involves making bits of wood look like the bits of wood I am attaching them to even if I have to paint in the grain on occasion to complete the illusion. However, I do suspect this is "Spanish" or "Cuban" - something that you can't get hold of any more for love nor money but which used to be sent back as ballast on ships taking goods and passengers out to the New World in them days. Definitely a Swietenia species anyway, which makes it a "genuine" mahogany.
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Oct 20, 2015 22:21:48 GMT
In The Luthier Blog N K Forster says that “Cutaways are king”. From his experience he maintains that “Some folk do use the ‘dusty end’. But even more folk like the idea of playing up the top, even if they never do. Give them the option.” That seems to make good sense to me; people prefer to buy cars that promise a lot even if that promise is out of reach. When your join is at the 13th fret, this makes even more sense and this was brought home to me again when My Friend Andy came to visit and expressed disappointment that there were several favourite tunes he couldn’t play because there was no cutaway on the my “first build” guitar. So now I am going to have a cutaway. Here is what the rim looked like when I came to this decision: A nicely rigid structure which I now had to take a slice out of. I drew a couple of lines and reached for my tenon saw and here’s the result: Now if you look at the design, you’ll notice that the cutaway is, in fact, a mirror image: and I fondly thought I might just be able to reverse the piece, remove the linings and mahogany “block” and then glue it back on the other way round. However, nothing is ever that simple; because the rim had already been sanded down to its final contour and because the arcs of soundboard and back have different radiuses, it just doesn’t fit if you turn it over. So… I made a new bit. Back to what’s left of my piece of walnut to take a little extra slice: Take it down to the right thickness (about 1.9mm) and then make up some new linings and join it all to the existing rim: It may sound simple but what a palaver. (I’ve even got cramps on top of cramps here!) You can see the new joint in the following picture; it should be strong enough once the top and bottom plates are attached: You can also see that by this time “I must have lost my presence of mind” (to quote Hoffnung) – not for the first time – and trimmed the non-cutaway side at a right-angle, which restricts the taper of the heel against the box on the finished guitar. A bit silly but not the end of the world; I hadn’t really decided what to do with the asymmetrical heel shape so this will help by restricting my options. (If any of this makes no sense at all please ask and I'll explain more fully). To recap, then, at this point I have a soundboard, a rim with cutaway, a roughed out neck and a solera to put them on. Here’s a picture of them all together: Just cut out the cutaway shape from the soundboard and we have something that stays in one piece and looks a little bit like a guitar – and just look at that cutaway! It’s a chomp! There’s a dramatic wall of mahogany and loads of access to the upper frets; you could almost put your fingers in the hole from there! Yes, I’m pleased with it; it’s going to look nice. I mustn’t get ahead of myself, though. I have a list of instructions written to me by me and this is where I have got to so far: Shape neck and heel joint
• First calculate exact angle neck needs to make with body
• Offer up neck and mark and cut mortises for A-braces in the heel-block
• Cut housings in sides of neck at angle ascertained above
• Shape “heel-block” to fit soundboard
• Shellac heel-block and mark with model, date and serial number
• Roughly shape the heel
• Glue neck to soundboard (hot hide glue/fish glue?)
The best thing is that the headings of the next five sections are: Make Linings
Make tail block
Make neck blocks
Make sides
Make up rim (box-skeleton)
and I’ve already done all of those because of my change of mind about the cutaway so now things are moving along nicely.
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
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Aemulor et ambitiosior
Posts: 3,548
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Post by davewhite on Oct 21, 2015 7:48:55 GMT
Rob, Great progress and a nicely executed change of design and direction on the hoof with the cutaway. Looks good and is pointy enough to inflict serious damage in a barroom fight I do suspect this is "Spanish" or "Cuban" - something that you can't get hold of any more for love nor money but which used to be sent back as ballast on ships taking goods and passengers out to the New World in them days. Could well be Cuban and the white specs in the wood would be consistent with that - lucky you. Unfortunately the original "passengers" you mention weren't so fortunate and were non paying coming from Africa. That's how the South American hardwoods got to Europe as ballast on the return journey and were dumped on the dockside to the surprise and delight of furniture makers.
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Oct 21, 2015 8:07:56 GMT
You're right; I could have done with some quotes round the "passengers" - though I think my table post-dates the abolition so I am absolved of all blame (apart from cultural blame of course...)
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Oct 23, 2015 23:07:16 GMT
I gather the idea of a solera is to build the guitar from the face through to the back. My solera took a lot of effort to built (since it is made out of slices of mdf glued face to face and then sanded down to their final profile, which matches the arc of the face of the guitar). The mdf was a big mistake since it delaminates alarmingly easily and I doubt that it will keep its shape accurately once I start asking it resist any kind of cramping. Anyway, I’m stuck with it for the time being until I find time to make another out of some nice stout pieces of pine – or even Douglas Fir! This is where the build begins then; I have a neck and I have a soundboard and the solera is all set up to line them up correctly and glue them together. Unfortunately, I haven’t arranged any means of cramping the heel-block on to the end of the soundboard yet so I have gone a bit Heath Robinson with my half hundredweight of iron to hold them together while the glue goes off. (I’ve just deciphered the writing on top of the iron block and it reads “56 lbs” when the light’s in the right direction, which, as many of the old folk hereabout will know, is 4 stone or half a hundredweight). Here’s a more dramatic view with the iron block lowering like a thundercloud: You can also see here that I have at least started to shape the heel. It’s not symmetrical because of the cutaway and because I trimmed the other side of the rim away too far without thinking it through so it looks a little bit odd with the stripe down the middle which isn’t down the middle! Despite all these misgivings, I am content that the line of the neck is pretty well spot on in both planes: i.e. the centre line points straight down the join down the middle of the soundboard and the angle the face of the neck makes with the face of the soundboard is correct; that angle is… 180° - better known as a straight line! I know that necks tend to be canted back one or two degrees but I have planned this so that it can be a straight line. Here are some drawings to prove it: I have the centre of my saddle at 12.3mm above the soundboard and estimate an action of 2.18mm above the fret (which stands 1.19mm above the fretboard) for strings 3 and 4 at the 12th fret. If I taper the fretboard from 5.5mm to 6.34mm at the body end, then I can have a straight line running through from the face of the neck ( not the fretboard) to the face of the soundboard. However, this taper is difficult to do precisely so I tried various thicknesses of fretboard to see how they would do. Here is the 5mm fretboard: As you can see, I have to start canting the neck back at a very subtle angle for the strings to hit the saddle 12.3mm above the soundboard (if the action etc. are kept constant). So I kept going with thicker and thicker fretboards until I reached one which meant I didn’t have to cant the neck back at all. Here it is: You will observe that it is 6.75mm thick. I don’t think that’s outrageously thick so that’s what I am going with on this guitar. If you have (a) followed what the hell I am talking about and (b) think it is outrageously thick, please let me know as soon as possible so that I can perform another volte-face before your very eyes. Meanwhile, in another part of the workshop I have been gluing together two pieces of walnut to make up the back of the guitar. I used the traditional tent method with fish glue and a row of nails down either side but had to “encourage” the tent to lie flat with various heavy tools; Heath Robinson makes a second appearance: While that was going off and settling down, I removed the ½cwt and examined the neck-soundboard union. It’s tempting to see if it flies (like a paper dart) but I resisted the urge and took some photos instead: I did notice a small oversight; where the soundboard is cut away for the cutaway, there will be an undesirable line of Douglas Fir between the mahogany of the cutaway and the fretboard. I therefore trimmed the Fir back slightly and glued in a piece of mahogany to mask the edge: And this (below) is a bit messy; need to sort myself out a bit so that bits like this, which are almost on view, don’t look quite so amateurish: Meanwhile, back in the other part of the workshop, the back board had gone off sufficiently to stand the strain, so I set about sanding and planing to get the board down to a reasonable thickness: It gave me a headache and irritated my lumpy knuckles but I think it’s just about down to under 2mm in most places now – and it’s starting to look like a back: though that could have something to do with cutting it out to be back-shaped! Well, that’s the way things stand as of this evening and, since it’s half-term and I have children, we are away for a few days from tomorrow so this is the way things will stay for a little while. Thanks for reading.
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Oct 24, 2015 8:39:31 GMT
I somehow doubt that anyone will be interested but, just for my peace of mind, here is a clarification of the drawings of the fretboard profiles. (I realise on checking this morning that you can’t actually see enough detail in the drawings as they have come out.) Here is a brief explanation.
I wanted the top/face of the neck (not of the fretboard) to be a straight continuation of the face of the soundboard because
- It’s easier to line up at 180° than at 181.345° or some such
- I wanted the underside of the fretboard to glue flush on to the top of the soundboard without a tapering gap to fill and without being channelled into the soundboard since it is more straightforward to do and also seems "right".
With this in mind my fixed points were:
- The action (i.e. string height) at the 12th fret is always 2.18mm above a 1.19mm fret (at the lateral centre of the fretboard) - The bottom of the fretboard just touches the face of the soundboard at the edge of the hole (i.e. no gap and no letting in especially at this point) - The string arrives at the saddle at a height of 12.3mm above the face of the soundboard
Result: fretboard thickness = 6.75mm (or a tapered fretboard as explained in the main text)
Hope this hasn't put you off reading the thread for ever!
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
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Aemulor et ambitiosior
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Post by davewhite on Oct 24, 2015 10:13:45 GMT
Rob, More great progress. Adrian Lucas ( ajlucas) would be in a better position to comment as he builds with Spanish heels but the top where the bridge is usually domes up slightly under string tension and the string tension will also pull up the neck at the headstock end changing the actual neck angle into a slight positive one and you have to allow for this "wriggle room" in your calculations. This is why steel string guitars usually have a slight negative neck set angle - in your case you'll probably need the fingerboard to be thinner than you are planning now.
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Post by ajlucas on Oct 24, 2015 10:31:28 GMT
Yes Dave I build steel strings with a Spanish heel on a solera. When I'm calculating the neck angle/bridge height I allow for 1mm of increase in the action once string tension is on. In other words I'm looking for an action of about 1mm in the centre of the neck at the 12th fret when everything is static (i.e. no strings). With a 2.5mm dome in the soundboard at the bridge the neck angle comes out around 1ª back from the plane of the soundboard. On a solera this translates to a shim at the end of the neck extension of about 6mm.
Good to see you using douglas fir Rob. I've done a few soundboards with it and it works really well. I've also got a stash of quarter sawn df doors from the 1930s. Most of it gets used for bracing, which is the only thing I've used for this for over 20 years, but now and then I get a piece wide enough for soundboards.
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Luthier
Aemulor et ambitiosior
Posts: 3,548
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Post by davewhite on Oct 24, 2015 11:25:38 GMT
Rob, - in your case you'll probably need the fingerboard to be thinner than you are planning now. On second thoughts I think that should be "thicker" than you are planning now. Great input Adrian . I used a Douglas Fir top once and it was a great top wood.
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Riverman
Artist / Performer
Posts: 7,381
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Post by Riverman on Oct 24, 2015 12:14:48 GMT
I know next to nothing about making guitars R the F (and, it sometimes feels, precious little about playing them!), but I love the sense of curiosity and adventure you seem to bring to the process.
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