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Post by fatfingerjohn on Jul 24, 2015 16:29:44 GMT
The guitar group that I teach is mainly made up of oldies with little or no music theory. I also try to keep a minimum of theory in what we do, restricting it mainly to chord progression theory, and chord structure, and what makes up e.g. a minor chord, a 7th, a major 7th etc.
Sorry if this is a daft question, which demonstrates my very limited theory as well.
One thing they have a lot of trouble with is 'what key is it in' and I must admit I find it hard to explain (and certainly not if you need a degree in music for it).
I'm lucky in that I compensate for being a less than accomplished player by having a very good 'ear' and can ''hear' what key a song is in and the chord progressions involved more or less immediately for most songs.
I can tell them what 'rules' there are to avoid when trying to assess the key, which seem to be common misunderstandings for the non-musical e.g.
--it is not always/even often the first note that is sung in the melody line that is the key its played in (this is the most common assumption, they sing the first note and think that is the first chord) --nor may the melody resolve on the last note to the key root chord --the key chord of the song i.e. the first in the progression (e.g. 'its played in C', so the C chord), may not be played in the first full line of the song at all; or even the second; or even, very occasionally, never e.g. Fields of Gold, played in G, the first time the G is played is at the end of line 2. --if the first chord is a minor, then what key is it in ......... etc
You will see already that I have difficulty explaining this!!!
I've searched the web and not found any sensible answer to this that I could pass on without a lot of theory which they (and me!) don't have.
But does anyone know a simple, non-technical way to explain/demonstrate to non-theory people how they can find the key for the song. (other than looking it up on the web).
FFJ
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Post by Riverman on Jul 24, 2015 16:50:42 GMT
I find it difficult enough to understand this sometimes, let alone explain it! When trying to teach basic theory (actually very basic, so that I don't stray too far towards the outer limits of my own knowledge), I put a lot of emphasis on getting people to hear what a V - I resolution sounds like. If they can get that in their head, it's quite likely that when they hear that perfect cadence in a song it will be resolving to the root chord. If it's, for example, a typical ragtime progression there may be multiple resolutions based on the Circle of Fifths - the most common example of which is probably in the key of C, jumping up to E7 then resolving by fifths through A7, D7 and G7 back to C. In fact using that progression is quite a good way to demonstrate the concept, because the ear can fairly easily identify when the resolution sequence reaches its final, er, resolution. Another, much less theoretical approach is to play all the notes up the fingerboard on the first string until you find the one that seems best to capture the essence of the song. It doesn't always work but will usually get the ear tuned in to the likely key, and with a basic knowledge of the sort of stuff you're already teaching, your students should then be better placed to figure out what the I, IV, V, vi chords (etc) are likely to be. That's about as well as I can put it...it's frustrating when this stuff, which makes such absolute musical sense when you grasp it as a concept, is so difficult to get across in words!
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Post by ocarolan on Jul 24, 2015 17:23:36 GMT
I know what you're getting at FFJ, but my question back to you would be ...why do they need to know/in what circumstances does the question arise? Knowing this might help towards a more concise answer!
Keith
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Post by davewhite on Jul 24, 2015 17:44:23 GMT
Most blues songs are in the key of life
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Jul 25, 2015 11:45:12 GMT
I know what you're getting at FFJ, but my question back to you would be ...why do they need to know/in what circumstances does the question arise? Knowing this might help towards a more concise answer! Keith Hi,
Good question; only way I can answer is in a scenario. I'm trying to take people out of a relative comfort zone of 'here's a song, here's the lyrics, here's the chords, lets play it together'. We've covered use of capo to change the pitch within the same key; and a bit of transposition to change the key without use of the capo. So, lets say I suggest they listen to a song and next time we'll play it through, they've got to work out what key to play it in. This seems to confuse many in practice; very typically someone may take the first note in the melody, e.g an E and then start the song off with an E chord. But obviously the first note is not always the root note, so the first chord is not an E and its not played in the key of E. The song may be being played in the key of C and the first note is an E (i.e. a 3rd). I can explain that bit individually for the particular song we are referring to; but someone poses the question 'so how do we know what key the song is played in' and how do we work that out.
I am fully aware that the key you play it in is a combination of matching your vocal, choosing a key which allows the song to sound good on the guitar and/or which is what the original recording is in (even though a capo might then be used to change the pitch to suit the individual).
But I do find it difficult to answer the simple question when a song is played 'how do we know what key it is in'.
Hope that gives you a clue Keith. The answer may be a lemon ....
Regards
John
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Post by michaelm on Jul 25, 2015 11:51:44 GMT
I think "tonal center" might be the term you're after - don't ask me to explain it though! Google result: In tonality, the tonic (tonal center) is the tone of complete relaxation, the target toward which other tones lead" (Benward & Saker 2003, 36). Good luck in explaining that (and if you do, could you explain it to me also)
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Post by ocarolan on Jul 25, 2015 17:47:46 GMT
I think I'm getting nearer to what you're asking, John, but to clarify, are you talking about a song they listen to, and for which they are supposed to be working out the chords by ear and replicating it in the same key?
Sorry if I'm seeming to be thick here!
Keith
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Jul 25, 2015 18:24:31 GMT
I think I'm getting nearer to what you're asking, John, but to clarify, are you talking about a song they listen to, and for which they are supposed to be working out the chords by ear and replicating it in the same key? Sorry if I'm seeming to be thick here! Keith
Yes, although I was only using that as an example of situations when the subject can be raised and its not easy to explain 'what key is it in'.
In reverse it can equally be 'we're playing this in G' but the opening chord is not G, it may be for example C and resolve later to G, or not resolve to G at all; but the main components are a G,C,D progression. So someone asks 'how is it in the key of G when it doesn't start, stop, and occasionally doesn't include the G chord a lot. But it is still 'played in G'.
My question was more a general one of just how to explain what a 'key is'; perhaps its just the wrong (or unanswerable) question.
Sorry if this is just muddled questioning. I'm sure its not you being thick, much more likely the reverse.
Regards
J
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Post by ocarolan on Jul 25, 2015 22:45:28 GMT
No, not muddled questioning at all John. I'm just intrigued to know why they even want to know what key it's in - it's quite possible to work out the chords by ear to something without knowing what key the thing is in, and quite possible to play it once they have worked it out or been told the chords. The name of the key doesn't necessarily help them and is more a matter of curiosity. Yes? No?
I understand where you're coming from John, but as an intuitive rather than technical player I probably can't answer your questions meaningfully at all. But it is an interesting area, I agree. Perhaps the confusion over what key something is in relates to the key signature in which a piece may be notated - the two are often the same, but not always. An equally confusing area, as both key and key signature are used as frames of reference to help players know what general things to expect within a piece. As the music may contain notes not within the key, the key signature chosen to write out the music will be that which requires the least number of accidentals (out of key notes) to be added to the notation.
Not sure I'm making sense - tired and somewhat Glenlivitted! I'm looking forward to a grand discussion about this topic at Halifax!
Keith
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Post by andyhowell on Jul 26, 2015 10:41:03 GMT
There is no simple answer to this — funnily I was giving a lesson to a friend yesterday and having to try and explain a lot of this, i.e. using the capo to make chords more playable, matching the key to her voice and so on. A few things.
When playing a session this will usually be led by someone else who plays a lead instrument. Before playing I will often simply ask which key!
Secondly, most folks and traditional songs do start with the chord of the key — though you are right not always.
I have always found with pitch that I have a fairly good appreciation of the key of D. I can tune a guitar blind ( as it were) to reasonable accuracy to D — this is just something I've learned to do over the years and makes me suspect that it is right that anyone can be trained to perfect pitch — though having not done this myself. I might not be able to always quickly identify the key but I do whether I need to go up or down from D!
Transposing songs and tunes is a skill that is worth developing — there are some good apps (some free) that allow you to slow down songs, loop sections and so on.
While some songs may start in a different pitch than the key they almost always end on the right note !!! But not always :-)
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Jul 26, 2015 12:10:03 GMT
Thanks to both Andy and Keith for your input here.
Andy is demonstrating that I'm not alone in this difficulty of explanation. You hit the nail on the head Andy when you put this in the context of a 'session', which is similar to when we have an 'all join in' routine at the end of one of the Folk clubs I go to; it always starts with 'what song shall we do' immediately followed by 'what key shall we do it in (e.g.) D'. Most people will immediately relate to this and play it in that key 'signature', irrespective of the first note of the song.
I think Keith's use of the word 'signature' is core to the explanation problem. Keith puts this as 'the frame of reference' which gives those who have, either technically or intuitively, the ability to translate this into the chord content of the song. But knowing the logic of this doesn't make it any easier (to me) to explain 'what the key is'.
Whatever, its been useful to try to express this in my muddled writing and I do buy in to the general principle that in a lot of situations the knowing what the key is is irrelevant; it's just that people ask me the question! Perhaps I should just say don't worry about it, you'll know the answer when you get there, and if you don't its not an issue.
As Keith says it would be interesting to bounce this around at Halifax, preferably pre-whisky tasting.
John
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Post by ocarolan on Jul 26, 2015 12:22:47 GMT
Everyone can play the chords to Sweet Home Alabama - D...C...G....... Folk will argue for hours about what key it's in. Some will say Gmajor (usually because it tends to be notated with a Gmajor) key signature); some will say Dmajor (because that's how it "feels" to many intuitive musicians and is most likely what you'd shout as being the key in a strumalong session); some smartarses will say Dmixolydian (which isn't a key but a mode - the song melody uses a Dmix scale). Does it matter? Nope. Just play the song and enjoy it. Keith
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Post by andyhowell on Jul 26, 2015 17:27:42 GMT
Let's stop messing around. Just play in D ....
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Post by andyhowell on Jul 26, 2015 17:28:32 GMT
As Keith says it would be interesting to bounce this around at Halifax, preferably pre-whisky tasting.
John Yep. One other observation. Judging pitch gets bloody difficult after alcohol.
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Post by creamburmese on Jul 27, 2015 14:23:26 GMT
I would love to get some practical experience doing this - because I suck at it, even though I'm well aware of all the "techniques" used to figure it out if you're not a natural. I'm wondering if ear training makes the difference. Oh and on a side note, I just checked out my version of "fields of gold" in G, and the very first chord (harmonics) is a G chord with an added E... what does that make it? G6? then the first note after that is G.... so my recommendation is to get another version and everyone will be happy
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