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Post by nkforster on Apr 9, 2016 13:22:47 GMT
Can somebody define and give examples of "quacky"... Often quoted but seldom defined... Compare these two: Martin Simpson playing a Sobell, amazing guitar, amazing guitarist, recorded with a camera mic. No quack. Martin again, another amazing guitar, same amazing guitarist, through an undersaddle pickup. With quack. Now, you may like the sound of both. I much prefer the first. My feeling is the pickup doesn't do the guitar justice. My feeling is pickups rarely do any guitar justice. Mind the BBC have a habit these days of compressing signals beyond recognition, but that is a very good example of quack. It's not Martin's fault. what pickups tend to sound like. John Smith has a DTar Wavelength with a little mic in his Fylde. That's the 18v preamp. Still quacky, but a lot less to my ears. Sounds more like a guitar. n
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Post by Riverman on Apr 9, 2016 13:25:35 GMT
Can somebody define and give examples of "quacky"... Try: right near the end, about 4.46. This is an extreme example, but it has become almost the default acoustic guitar sound for some country records. Kym Yeah like I said... plastic-y!
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Post by andrewjw on Apr 9, 2016 13:26:55 GMT
Thanks Richard and Kym... So basically "quacky" sounds c.ap...tinny, plasticy , thin etc etc I've often wondered if I've been missing something when I've read that UST's all sound "quacky"... My UST based set up sounds nothing like the examples you've given...
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Post by nkforster on Apr 9, 2016 13:29:15 GMT
nkforster - Great post Nigel. Searching for an acceptable rather then an authentic acoustic sound may seem like heresy to some, but it's a wise approach if you want to avoid a lot of expense and frustration. I'd be interested to know whether, in your view, having a soundhole pickup fitted interferes with the acoustic sound? A well known guitar builder/repairer in my neck of the woods believes that they compromise the vibration of the top. At some point you will hear praise and blame for every single pickup there is. Just go by your own ears. I doubt a soundhole pickup will damage the acoustic sound more than an undersaddle transducer and they are a lot easier to take out. Basically, anything you add to the top is added mass. That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the instrument and where you add it. What I do think is you don't need to spend a fortune to get an acceptable sound. And the sooner folk let go of the notion of pickups replicating the natural sound of their instrument the sooner they will be happier. Because they don't. Pickups sound like pickups. n
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Post by andrewjw on Apr 9, 2016 13:31:11 GMT
Can somebody define and give examples of "quacky"... Often quoted but seldom defined... Compare these two: Martin Simpson playing a Sobell, amazing guitar, amazing guitarist, recorded with a camera mic. No quack. Martin again, another amazing guitar, same amazing guitarist, through an undersaddle pickup. With quack. Now, you may like the sound of both. I much prefer the first. My feeling is the pickup doesn't do the guitar justice. My feeling is pickups rarely do any guitar justice. Mind the BBC have a habit these days of compressing signals beyond recognition, but that is a very good example of quack. It's not Martin's fault. what pickups tend to sound like. John Smith has a DTar Wavelength with a little mic in his Fylde. That's the 18v preamp. Still quacky, but a lot less to my ears. Sounds more like a guitar. n Thanks Nigel... Listening on phones Sammy's Bar sounds just about ok tone wise...the other two not so good to my ears...
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Post by andrewjw on Apr 9, 2016 15:25:07 GMT
Equally.. Can anyone give some examples of what they think is good [or even better ] excellent amplified acoustic sound...? Sorry if this is hijacking your thread Andy Andy P ! Hopefully we'll benefit from any replies...
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Post by Riverman on Apr 9, 2016 19:11:24 GMT
My UST based set up sounds nothing like the examples you've given... Well there are so many variables... the player, style, dynamics, nails, flesh or picks, the cables, preamps, DI boxes, amp/PA, the room...and perhaps most important, the skill and taste (or lack thereof!) of whoever's controlling the resulting sound. All observations on this stuff are basically generalisations. The only way to be sure that something will work for you is to try it, and by that time you've generally blown the cash and made changes to your guitar that can be difficult to reverse. That's why I'm currently favouring the simple, relatively cheap and non-invasive soundhole pickup...which of course some people detest. C'est la vie!
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Post by Riverman on Apr 9, 2016 19:14:12 GMT
What I do think is you don't need to spend a fortune to get an acceptable sound. And the sooner folk let go of the notion of pickups replicating the natural sound of their instrument the sooner they will be happier. Because they don't. Pickups sound like pickups. n Wise words indeed!
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Post by Riverman on Apr 9, 2016 19:24:05 GMT
Equally.. Can anyone give some examples of what they think is good [or even better ] excellent amplified acoustic sound...? Sorry if this is hijacking your thread Andy Andy P ! Hopefully we'll benefit from any replies... This isn't a great clip, but Mac gets one of the best amplified tones I've heard. It doesn't sound "just like the guitar but louder", but it does sound really good in a concert setting, especially for his style of playing, and choice of material.
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Post by nkforster on Apr 9, 2016 19:27:49 GMT
Equally.. Can anyone give some examples of what they think is good [or even better ] excellent amplified acoustic sound...? Now you're asking... The best way to get a good stage sound is to play quietly with sympathetic musicians who also want to play quietly. This is a lot more common in the US than in the UK where some musicians really understand how to use mics. The music starts at 1:45 First time I went to the US I was shocked how quiet gigs were. And I was impressed by how good the sound was. Bluegrass bands have understood this for decades. But if it's pickups, they all sound bearable as long as the volumes are low. I've never heard a single one that sounds any good loud. Often you'd be better off with an electric guitar. The RMC is as good as I've heard but as I say, they do have a detrimental effect acoustically. And they area faff to fit. CNC is the best way to do it. I've seen people try to fit them by hand but it's never been a success. They are too easy to damage taking them in and out to check. I've never tried one but the idea behind the Variax always impressed me. Still sounds a bit quacky, but not as much as normal. I honestly think modelling is the way it should go, and at some point it'll be as good as a mic. Here is Ian playing around with the Fishman Aura - I sent one of my guitars to Fishman years ago to get it sampled. The results were ok, but not convincing enough to tell customers to spend the arm and a leg it cost to fit. Mind it's years since I looked at the system, it may have moved on. There is a reasonable review here: nigel www.nkforsterguitars.com
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Post by andrewjw on Apr 10, 2016 8:34:22 GMT
Thanks Richard and Nigel.. I thought the clip of Ian S using the RMC midi system sounded especially good...and the additional bass sound added in could be very effective in some situations! A relatively complex set up though...
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Post by Andy P on Apr 10, 2016 10:27:42 GMT
I think that, despite being a huge fan of the chap, RT's live acoustic sound is pretty dire actually, and not particularly acoustic sounding at all. I've heard him playing live at various stages in his career, and although his more recent Lowden signature model sounds better plugged in live than his old faithful Lowden, it still falls a long way short of decent acoustic plugged in tone. But I'll forgive him - the performance usually soon stops me agonising over tonal minutiae. Maybe we should devote as much time to improving our performances as we tend to spend agonising over gear.... Keith I'd agree with that to some extent Keith. Over the years I've seen him producing a pretty horrid "acoustic" sound whilst other times it's been good. I don't know why it's been so inconsistent but as someone has remarked somewhere on this thread, there are so many variables. It never sounds good on the telly that's for sure. By the way this isn't a sound you'd want as your default setting but on this performance of Persuasion I think his guitar sounds completely and utterly gorgeous
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Post by Andy P on Apr 10, 2016 10:44:05 GMT
Andy Andy P if you fancy a trip across to Plymouth sometime for a listen you'd be very welcome...as Kym suggests above it would be interesting to see if we could get the K and K on your Lowden sounding better using my Tonebone preamp etc That's very kind of you Andrew. I'll PM you.
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Post by andyhowell on Apr 10, 2016 10:45:34 GMT
I'm fascinated but the Amplification section of that other Guitar Forum. "This sounds just like my guitar" Of course it doesn't.
I often think we should be saying things like. "this is a good pickup — it is less crap than the others".
They are a necessary evil. I like to blend in a real mic if I get the chance but that happens about 5% of the time.
Thompson's sound is varied I guess because of the other gear and factors in the amplification train, not least the engineer and the venue. But little things can make a big difference.
I played a regular gig last night with a friend of mine. She likes to play a nice nylon Spanish guitar. She has developed a style with real attack and an almost flamenco thump. the guitar has a K&K in it and while decent it sound a bit edgy and raw at times. For months I have been trying to get her to play through my Headway Preamp. We tried it yesterday while sound checking the guitars. With just minimal eq (a little lower mid cut and a little treble boost) it sounded much, much better. It was still the same sound but the harshness had gone and the boomy thump when hitting the fingerboard was suddenly acceptable. Up to know she has been running into a Bose tone match and while that is great clearly doesn't work with the guitar as well as a high quality analogue preamp.
We then tried the same arrangement with our headliner. He plays a Fender acoustic with built in electronics that are not half bad. Running with a flat eq through the Headway improved the balance of his tone significantly as well.
Given that we were only changing one element in the signal chain the difference was very noticeable and resulted in a much classier sound. I imagine in big venues and arenas people like Thompson are in the lap[ of the gods to some extent. Mind you, his mix through the monitors might have been very acceptable to him even when the sound the audience had been murdered through the house system.
Enough. This is getting far too geeky :-)
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Post by Andy P on Apr 10, 2016 11:39:57 GMT
Sorry if this is hijacking your thread Andy Andy P ! Not at all Andrew. I'm flabbergasted and delighted with the response to my original question. I've just spend a couple of hours carefully reading everybody's comments, listening to the video-clips and chasing up product descriptions and reviews. I've learned so much, not least that much of it is actually unlearnable and it's a all a matter of personal taste, various combinations and trial and error (potentially expensive). At the moment I'm definitely leaning toward a soundhole pickup, maybe the Fishman Rare Earth Blend. I'm over in the States in few weeks and can pick one up there for around £200. I use a Headway Mini preamp. Thanks to you all for sharing your knowledge.
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